HD-DVDs outshine Blu-Ray, oh dear
by Nick Doerr 
{ Jul 5th 2006 at 12:30PM }
Even though the poll results here say that Blu-Ray is fine by us, there are still many sources of criticism saying the new format is balderdash. At the Centre Daily Times, an article compares the two formats from the layman's view before reading critical reviews which seem to change his attitude about the format. Perhaps change is too harsh a word ... he seems to accept their views more than his own opinion.When the man, Thaddeus Mark, views a Blu-Ray demo in motion, he "was very impressed and left with no reason to think Blu-ray would be anything but incredible in production form." You do have to consider that the Blu-Ray demo was in a fantastic atmosphere, guarded closely by Sony personnel. Still, perhaps that was the atmosphere Sony wanted the Blu-Ray to amaze in: home theaters, surround sound ... but Sony personnel are hopefully optional.
Thaddeus goes on to say that HD-DVD looked good as well, was receiving praise from critics while Blu-Ray was getting "universal scorn". The quotes from the critics are quite vicious -- if Blu-Ray were a child in a talent show, it would cry for hours and never perform in public again.
Is Blu-Ray dead in the water so soon after launch? Perhaps, perhaps not. Maybe it's the player itself that's having trouble. Maybe the first round of discs aren't that hot. Sony was smart in one aspect: they didn't make the PS3 the first Blu-Ray enabled device. Now there is time to improve.
[Kudos to RedSam for this tidbit!]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
boots @ Jul 5th 2006 12:52PM
It's because the idiots decided to use single layered discs for the first batch of movies. So even when they touted "higher storage" for Blu-ray, they are pitting 25 GB movies against 30 GB movies. That and probably inferior hardware, compression or both.
Still, it is a Samsung, and samnsung hardware stands out because of price, not quality, usually. Even when it is more expensive than a HD-DVD player, it is the cheapest Blu-ray player of the bunch.
If Sony, Panasonic, and so on don't release movies on better discs (double layered ones), and better hardware, then it is indeed doomed.
Andir2.0 @ Jul 5th 2006 12:53PM
As much as I like AVSForum, there are definately a lot of "fanboy" mentalities there. This report is about as valid as posting a link to Joystiq and calling it fact. If you make up your mind based on some overpaid lawyer who thinks he knows what is the best thing in the world and thinks tube amps need a comeback, you get what you deserve.
The Hedon @ Jul 5th 2006 1:11PM
Um...Andir2.0...they just reference avsforum. The article it self is not from AVS forum however.
This is pretty much the norm I am finding. Blu-Ray has been overhyped.
dylan neild @ Jul 5th 2006 1:12PM
Blu-ray is a great idea. Sony have just really messed up the launch:
- Single layer Blu-ray discs are 25GB. Dual layer discs at 50GB are producing horrible yields and are not likely going to be seen this year in pre-recorded form.
- With only 25GB to use, you'd assume Sony would choose a modern compression technology given the smaller space available. For some reason, Sony is still flogging the MPEG2 horse. I honestly think that this and this alone is where most of the macroblocking and picture quality issues are coming from. Inferior codec with limited storage space.
- The film prints the Blu-ray films are being transferred from are horrible. Fifth Element has visible film scratches, for example. What the hell was Sony thinking there? Take a bad film, then compress it with a 10+ year old video codec at lower bitrates. Great idea.
- 2 months AGO, you could get movies on dual layer, 30GB HD-DVD's, which are pretty much the norm. At this rate, triple layer 45GB HD-DVD discs may be viable at or around the same time Sony finally gets their act together on dual layer BD's. This is speculation, but given Blu-ray's sucess record so far, isn't too out in left field.
- All of the discs i've seen on HD-DVD are in VC-1 with Dolby Digital Plus and look and sound amazing at 1080. Modern compression with 5GB more space than Blu-ray? Not hard to see why HD-DVD is stomping Blu-ray, quality wise.
Consider all of these things - then consider that HD-DVD has MORE announced and/or shipping titles -right now- (100+ last I checked, with 30 shipping), has a player that costs 1/2 the price that does a much better job playing back SD-DVD content (which is very important to most people with large DVD collections, including myself)... once again, not hard to see why HD-DVD is stomping Blu-ray.
Also, given the success of HD-DVD early, it's looking like Disney has indicated that they'll be releasing HD-DVD titles as well. This is huge news, considering they were a Blu-ray only studio before Blu-ray was released. Once Disney comes, Fox won't be too far behind, despite BD+, and if that happens, THEN it may be game over for Blu-ray.
Half the price for the same or better quality and all the studios, except Sony (plus you get Universal, which is absent on BD).
Hard to say "no thanks" to that.
TheGuyNextDoor @ Jul 5th 2006 1:41PM
BluRay has not been overhyped. Each camp has it's more vocal advocates. Some people just think if they shout louder or use longer words, their opinions will somehow count for more.
Personally, as a consumer, I will judge for myself.
I fully intend to purchase a PS3, so round one goes to BluRay in my book, but that alone doesn't cement my allegience.
Kyle @ Jul 5th 2006 1:50PM
It is indeed all opinion. I'll judge for myself, like the guy from the article did before quoting critical comments about Blu-Ray. I don't know all the detailed specs of everything and I don't need to. If one delivers higher quality in my eyes on my tv, then it's the one for me. The PS3 however... is mandatory. So I'll deal with it, I guess.
Cage @ Jul 5th 2006 2:09PM
"BluRay has not been overhyped. Each camp has it's more vocal advocates. Some people just think if they shout louder or use longer words, their opinions will somehow count for more."
Translation: I read through the points that were made and it makes sense. I dont know how to make a rebuttal so I will say the previous post was too long. I am a fanboy and will buy a PS3 regardless. I wanted to post to show I am mindless.
jc @ Jul 5th 2006 2:22PM
Cage dude it's me what's up. I now who you are and why you are so angry. You are from Mortal Kombat. Johny Cage right? Wow you are so cool. I used you alot. You are da man. I'm still learning Egrish so you haf to fogrive me. You guys Cage is also a school teacher. Who knew huh? yeah becareful what you write he will repremand you for it. All I want say about Blue-ray is I'm afraid it could end up being like UMD. I guess only time will tell.
SuicideNinja @ Jul 5th 2006 2:42PM
Sony always has problems with launching and maintaining their formats, no matter what the potential capabilities are. They always end up tripping over themselves. Not to mention overcharging the consumer and 3rd party manufacturers.
Anyway, it amazes me that they insist on MPEG2. Bluray is supposed to support the newer codecs, so why wouldn't they put that support to use? Mind-boggling.
boots @ Jul 5th 2006 3:20PM
Dylan Neild,
Much of what you are saying, as you admitted on one paragraph, is speculation, and it's too early to tell. You are saying you get "all studios except Sony", but Sony includes Columbia Tristar and MGM, which is a much heavier group than "just Universal". You will still be getting more studios by the time PS3 is out, and for 600 bucks, I prefer a player and a game console rather than just a player for 500. Don't accuse me of being a fanboy either, I'm a gamer, and own a 360 already.
Also, could you please point out where did you see Disney backing? Because I searched for it, and couldn't find more than "Disney considering HD DVD support, sees Blu-ray as eventual winner ".
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060313-6374.html
I do agree that sony made a mistake with using the wrong codecs (and discs)... I mean, all Blu-ray players are supposed to be able to decode VC-1 too, and even H.264. But we'll be able to see who's a better contender by the time PS3 is available (and by that I mean you can go to any store and pick one up), among a good bunch of HD-DVD and Blu-ray players, not just Toshiba and Samsung. And of course, dual-layered/triple-layered movies (if not higher, if possible).
SuicideNinja @ Jul 5th 2006 4:43PM
I believe Disney may have backed HD-DVD early on (they aligned with the DVD forum), but they are firmly Bluray at the moment. The sides are bouncing around because they are still unsure of what will happen (just like us!).
Online petition for HD-DVD Disney movies:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/193126108?ltl=1152131832
(I don't support either format, this was just interesting)
"I prefer and a game console rather than just a player for 500."
If we were talking "on paper" I would agree with you. But I couldn't stand to use the PS2 for DVDs. I have a feeling that the PS3 will be the same way. They undoubtedly have to strip down the PS3's bluray functionality to stay competitive. Stand alone players are always better. I'd rather haul a load with a pickup truck than with an El Camino.
Then again, we are all stuck "waiting to see".
TheGuyNextDoor @ Jul 5th 2006 6:00PM
""7. "BluRay has not been overhyped. Each camp has it's more vocal advocates. Some people just think if they shout louder or use longer words, their opinions will somehow count for more."
Translation: I read through the points that were made and it makes sense. I dont know how to make a rebuttal so I will say the previous post was too long. I am a fanboy and will buy a PS3 regardless. I wanted to post to show I am mindless.
Posted at 2:09PM on Jul 5th 2006 by Cage""
Pardon me "Cage", but I don't know who you are, or more to the point, who you think you are, but making witless insults at other people just highlights your complete lack of intellect.
For your information, I was not replying to the "previous post", in fact when I started typing my post, there was only post number 2 and number 3 visible.
So kindly refrain from trying to blindly interpret someone else's opinion who doesn't happen to agree with your own blinkered views.
And then grow up.
Cage @ Jul 5th 2006 6:24PM
Right...his comments were a half hour before yours...rigggggght. But anyway, not here to anger or make "witless comments". Just having debate is all.
funkbass23 @ Jul 5th 2006 8:08PM
Debate is the formulation of arguments on topic to the subject at hand, not childish name calling. I think you're funny though. It amazes me just how much you must have to prove.
Tom @ Jul 5th 2006 11:16PM
I think I'll skip PS3 and buy an HVD-enabled PS4 instead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc
DocEvil @ Jul 6th 2006 12:33AM
#10 - boots
Ummm... The very article you pointed out didn't say:
"Disney considering HD DVD support, sees Blu-ray as eventual winner"
It says(word for word):
"Now it appears as though a Blu-ray backer may opt for a bit of neutrality as well. During the company's annual meeting with shareholders last week, Disney CEO Robert Iger said that HD DVD support is a real possibility. Saying that "we're very exited about next generation DVD formats," Iger made it clear that Disney has been supporting Blu-ray because they believe it "offers more features and higher quality than the competing format." However, before saying that that company still believes that Blu-ray is going to ultimately prevail, Iger admitted that the company "will probably publish in both formats." That is, Disney will likely release titles in both HD DVD and Blu-ray."
If I was to paraphrase this I would say 'Disney believes Blu-ray offers better features and quality but will likely publish in both formats'
Of course Iger's impressions at that point would have been based on selective, controlled demoes of the technology and now that HD-DVD and Blu-ray are both available in the marketplace, trained, discerning and reputable eyes are giving their first impressions of the actual product and few are higner caliber than projector central when it comes to visual fidelity. (perhaps UltimateAV or HomeTheatreMag are)
Blu-ray first impressions by Evan Powell:
"Overall, our initial experience with the Samsung Blu-ray player and the initial Blu-ray discs leaves us underwhelmed. The image quality does not measure up to what we would expect from a high definition source, and it certainly falls short of the hype. Though there is an obvious difference in quality between the three Blu-ray discs we have on hand, even the best of them falls short of the video quality of our HD-DVDs."
http://www.projectorcentral.com/blu-ray_initialreport.htm
HD-DVD first impressions also by Evan Powell:
"The image quality was superior to any of the previous demos I'd seen—pure, rock solid, pristine, razor sharp, highly detailed, and virtually artifact-free are just some of the superlatives that come to mind."
http://www.projectorcentral.com/hd-dvd.htm
Also, keep in mind that you can buy both an Xbox 360 and a stand alone Hd-Dvd player for $100 less than just a stand alone Blu-ray player. Food for thought.
TheGuyNextDoor @ Jul 6th 2006 3:03AM
""13. Right...his comments were a half hour before yours...rigggggght. But anyway, not here to anger or make "witless comments". Just having debate is all.
Posted at 6:24PM on Jul 5th 2006 by Cage""
Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, but again you show yourself up. As far as I'm aware, a comment will only appear on this page once it has been confirmed by clicking the url in the email sent to you. It will then slot into the time-slot from when it was originally typed. Surely you've been sliming around here long enough to figure that one out? Riiiiiiiiiight?
boots @ Jul 6th 2006 9:10PM
I'm sorry DocEvil, I only took the time to do some quick research on Disney and HD-DVD, and that was the subject of this:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060313-6374.html
Disney could consider to back HD-DVD too because, if I remember well, they champion iHD (which is part of the HD-DVD spec) over Java (which is part of the BD spec). My point was that there are no official statements on Disney backing HD-DVD, as said by Dylan.
Anyway, I think you are jumping to conclusions too fast, since there are few blu-ray players on the market. I'm used to seeing Panasonic, Sharp and Sony TVs being better than Samsung's (even if not as cheap), so it wouldn't be surprising to me if it happened with Blu-ray players. Then again, the problem most likely stems from the discs, since they tried to squeeze MPEG-2 movies into 25GB discs... a problem that would be easily solved, if not with dual-layered discs, simply by using more advanced codecs, ones that are supported by *every single blu-ray player* (on spec, at least), such as H-264 (but I heard that isn't being that widely used yet because studios don't have as much experience with it as they do with MPEG-2) and VC-1. I think many movies available on HD-DVD right now are WB's and encoded in VC-1, so as soon as they release their movies on Blu-ray (because they are backing it), and the other backers (including Sony) do the same, things will change.
The format war has barely started, and the most important weapon has yet to be released, namely the PS3. A console AND a Blu-ray player (not top-notch, but still), all in one package.
nick @ Jul 7th 2006 8:43PM
Every point Dylan raised is valid. Currently HD DVD has the technical lead over Blu-Ray. HD DVDs are 30GB movie discs vs Blu-Ray's 25GB movie discs. And HD DVDs are using the more modern VC-1 compression vs Sony's stuck in the past MPEG2 (this is a major disappointment). Factor in the cost of the player, and the advantage right now is in the HD DVD camp.
The only thing keeping Blu-Ray alive is the PS3.
Without the PS3, Blu-Ray is dead on arrival.
boots @ Jul 9th 2006 6:40PM
No nick, as I just demoed, some of his claims, such as citing that Disney is indeed backing HD-DVD (which is not), are invalid. So saying "every point dylan raised is valid" is actually invalid.
He also said that "You are not getting every studio with Blu-ray, but you will be with HD-DVD (except Sony)", which is contradictory, enough to be considered invalid. First, Columbia, Tristar and MGM probably (not to say definitely) amount for a lot more movies than *just* Universal, making that point's validity even weaker. Second, again, Disney doesn't back HD-DVD now and there are no official announcements for that happening, so he based everything he said on speculation, and claimed: "Hard to say "no thanks" to that", assuming his speculation bears more validity than the current facts.
Also, saying Blu-ray is dead without PS3 is still a very exaggerated claim (and again, speculation), given that we're only judging with the first batch of movies, discs and players (Toshiba and Samsung).
On my opinion, it's very easy to say "no thanks" to both formats right now, since there is no winner, no format has (or will have with the current situation) all movies, and Blu-ray has to prove itself yet.
Disregarding the fact that most laptops made by Toshiba are of the worst quality, I will not be buying HD-DVD because I don't need it as of now. I will also not be buying HD-DVD burners because if I needed massive storage, then I would go for Blu-ray. And finally, the only Blu-ray player I will buy in a time of one or two years, will be the PS3, and not because it plays Blu-ray movies. By the time there is a "winning format", content on demand will be a lot closer to us.