Blu-ray and HD-DVD fight kicks up a notch amongst critics [Update]
With our PS3 Blu-ray library growing week by week, we try to stay abreast of the latest in fervent format war discussion. More recently, the ongoing battle between HD DVD and Blu-ray polarized opinions of two key industry critics. Last week, Harry Knowles over at Aint It Cool News, posted a write-up of his decision to "go HD DVD" with his purchase of the Toshiba HD-A2 player. In response, Bill Hunt, editor of The Digital Bits, interjected and laid down what we perceive to be one of the most well written responses on why HD DVD will not win the HD format war. Attacking all fronts, we most enjoyed the Digital Bits interpretation of the porn industry's influence on HD DVD (or lack there-of), and their critical stab at Toshiba and their price drop on HD DVD players, likening it as an act of desperation for a doomed format. Certainly a good read for our Blu-ray fans.[Update: After comparing the two, we felt compelled to change the "picks" to "kicks" in our post title, as suggested in our comments. Thanks, BlackBeltJones.]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Space_Butler @ Jun 5th 2007 1:44PM
"and their price drop on HD DVD players, likening it as an act of desperation"
Sony announced last minute yesterday their new Blu-ray standalone player price has been slashed from 599 to 499. I guess that's "desperation" too? The problem with the Digital Bits is it takes some good points (if blu-ray ever matches the price, HD-DVD is doomed) and shoots it to the moon with hyperbole ("$100 off the player = DESPERATION!"). Bill Hunt has really lost touch with the whole format war. He was widely respected during the DVD era, but let's be fair, there wasn't a format war for people to get emotionally invested.
What I have to wonder, though, is if this will affect PS3 sales. For a while, the PS3 was the cheapest blu-ray player, and people were picking it up JUST for blu-ray movies. Will this lead to slower adoption?
Luke @ Jun 5th 2007 1:45PM
I couldn't care who wins the "war" tbh as long as both formats have there fair share of films and such out.
I'll be getting the 360 HD addon soon just so I don't miss out on any HD-DVD exclusives.
John Mayock @ Jun 5th 2007 2:13PM
@ElwoodJD
Thanks for being honest. You can compete with its install base by lowering prices for sure. There will be games for the ps3 and come fall, with home, lbp, and many other titles, then you can claim problems if the pickup rate doesn't increase. I know as the previsou owner of 6 360 consoles, the 360s reliablity its a shambles, one that converted me to the ps3. Most won't given the imbalance of games but when that turns around, I know many who will. Of course if the 65nm unit fixes it, I will respect M$, but they haven't even bothered to resolve this issue near 2 yrs in, I doubt they have the knowledge to rsolve it once and for all. Hell, it shouldn't be that way in the first place. :)
Welshbloke @ Jun 5th 2007 2:21PM
This response seems a desperate rant to what seemed to be a personal journey into the HD format.
L @ Jun 5th 2007 2:31PM
All this talk of war -_- God Dam it!!!
Lets play GAMES!!! ...... O yey the only thing to talk about with Ps3 is the Blu-ray drive =(
Taylor B @ Jun 5th 2007 2:36PM
#3
It really depends on the context. Obviously we cannot link to every price drop in the technical market as an act of desperation. Prices drop for many reasons to spur sales, sometimes it's because competition, sometimes it's because manufacturing costs have gone down. For HD-DVD, it sounds like it's neither of those two. Sure, Blu-Ray players are dropping in price, but HDDVD still maintains the cheapest players. It seems like they're just trying to drop the price as low as possible to increase the adoption rate. But let's say something first, the "desperation manuever" comment was that of the Digital Bits, not PS3Fanboy, or Sony or anyone else.
The PS3 is different in a few ways, first, if Sony did drop their price, it would be because of lower manufacturing costs, and because it's price is significantly higher than that of the 360. Price is a major impedance to the PS3.
Toshibas HD DVD player on the other hand, is the lowest price player on the market yet they are continuing to drop the price despite the fact that this advantage has not changed.
It would be as if the 360 dropped it's price by 100 or 150 in order to drive themselves into the red just to spur sales. Sure, if their manufacturing costs had gone down, it would make sense, but what if it didn't? Even if they still maintained a 100-200 dollar price advantage over the PS3?
The PS3 is heavily criticized for being so expensive, and seeing as it's 600 and the most expensive console, there's alot of credit to that statement. So when Sony drops the price, it would be due demands for a cheaper PS3, so it would be more affordable. But really, how many knowledgable early adopters are criticizing HD DVD for being too expensive? Comparatively speaking to Blu Ray or combo players? $300 vs. $600 vs. $1200? (respectively)
Sorry if my post is messy, I was doing a few things while writing this, but I think my point stands. They're in really different positions.
h0mi @ Jun 5th 2007 2:37PM
"and their critical stab at Toshiba and their price drop on HD DVD players, likening it as an act of desperation for a doomed format."
The same could've been said about the BD disc sales earlier this year.
Taylor B @ Jun 5th 2007 2:42PM
I would like to mention something, and you can apply this to just about anything in tech.
When expensive things get cheaper, it's expected, but when the cheapest things, suddenly get cheaper, it's worth examining.
Ed @ Jun 5th 2007 2:48PM
HD-DVD exclusive LOL LOL LOL. Damn thats funny. I've seen very little if anything that perks my interest in that format. But I guess thats what happens when you only have one Studio supporting you. Even the porn on HD-DVD is inferior. So it's pretty easy to believe that the price cut is a true act of desperation. They're despritly trying to up their install base. Any moron, except MS Fanboys can see that.
Doc @ Jun 5th 2007 2:57PM
the sad thing is that the bottom line is that is isn't the same war as betamax vs. vhs.. it's an unfair war. If all movies were available on "BOTH" formats then we could have a fair battle ,but the article has one thing right and if your a fan of HD-DVD sorry to say this ,but blu-ray is a safer bet because whether you like sony or not they do have a lot of influence in this market and all you have to do is look at the computer world and note that pc's have blu-ray drives and burners out on the market NOW...HD-DVD isn't doing anything in this arena. HD formats are great ,but if you can't copy your own stuff the niche group of people out there won't buy your shit..sorry toshiba maybe next time your try a bit harder..maybe?
TK00 @ Jun 5th 2007 3:15PM
#3 - At least your an honest fanboy!!
Heres the thing - Its the playstation BRAND vs the Xbox BRAND. Even though the PS3 costs a fair bit more then the 360, the 360 is still quite expensive.
The PS2 is still outselling the 360. The Xbox 180 is dead. PS2 sales + PS2 install base + PS3 sales = a TON MORE 360 sales + install base of Xbox 180.
TK00 @ Jun 5th 2007 3:16PM
whoop typo:
I meant : a TON MORE then...
TK00 @ Jun 5th 2007 3:19PM
By the way , Joystiq: I think this site gets a lot of traffic, no? You got to be making some money. Invest in a web 2.0 dev and get a simple EDIT feature for the comments. It's a pretty common feature.
samfish @ Jun 5th 2007 3:30PM
"This response seems a desperate rant to what seemed to be a personal journey into the HD format."
It's a very dickish response, is what it is.
I'm a vegetarian, a Mac user and pretty much a Nintendo fanboy.
Being all those things, I've had to deal with those kind of, "YOU'RE WRONG, STUPID!" responses for AGES. I really do hate when people tell you that a personal choice that made that has no course altering impact on your life is wrong.
Personally, I don't give a hoot one way or the other about BR or HD-DVD. I fully intend to sit on the fence until players are around $150 and a winner is chosen (if there even is one).
blasphemizer @ Jun 5th 2007 4:01PM
Exactly why I won't buy in to either format. I will stick with DVD till its death, and when the dust is settled, there won't be HD DVD or Blu Ray, we will just store the data on hard drives and be done with it.
Breeze @ Jun 5th 2007 4:06PM
It was only a matter of time before the 360 / HD-DVD trolls would question and try to spin the honest truth spoken by Bill Hunt of Digital Bits. If you have not read this lengthy piece, I encourage you to do so because it's one of the best well written explanations of why HD-DVD is failing from a non-subjective point of view. To call Bill Hunt a subjective Blu-ray fanboy would be ignorant if you know anything about the man or the respect he commands. Like it or not, he calls the truth over and over again.
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/soapbox/soap060107.html
HD-DVD is dead. Live with it and move on. If you own a HD-DVD player, try and sell it before the bottom falls out.
upz @ Jun 5th 2007 4:24PM
I think Taylor B's hit the nail right on the head. Good call.
As far as PS3 sales go, I think Sony's just about saturated the market for people who are willing to shell out copious amounts of money for the latest tech (including those who needed a Blu-ray player this early on). Unfortunately, I don't see us moving past four million this year. 2008 will be a good year for us, but it won't mean a damn thing if 360 or Wii have already reached critical mass (ala PS2 circa 2003).
Samfish, you are wrong, stupid. Thanks for letting us know that you're the hippest hipster in town. Take your popped collar, black rimmed glasses and fauxhawk elsewhere.
WTangoFoxtrot @ Jun 5th 2007 4:25PM
@17
"If you own a HD-DVD player, try and sell it before the bottom falls out."
sorry mate, too busy enjoying the Matrix trilogy on it to listen to you rantings......
Breeze @ Jun 5th 2007 4:50PM
"sorry mate, too busy enjoying the Matrix trilogy on it to listen to you rantings......"
So you're the ONE that bought it. I'd sell it too.
Brian Spence @ Jun 5th 2007 4:55PM
Harry Knowles is such a misinformed geek. It was probably Eli Roth who told him HD-DVD was the best. Yeah, like you can rely on the guy who directed Cabin Fever and Hostel. Yawn.
His post was FILLED with inaccuracies and wild guesses. Odd for someone who claims to have researched it a lot.
BlackBeltJones @ Jun 5th 2007 5:19PM
Am I the only one who noticed that the title of the article has Picks up a notch instead of Kicks up a notch. I thought it might be regional but google search has confirmed it, the author of this article is the first person in history to refer to an escalating argument as picking up a notch.
samfish @ Jun 5th 2007 5:22PM
"Samfish, you are wrong, stupid. Thanks for letting us know that you're the hippest hipster in town. Take your popped collar, black rimmed glasses and fauxhawk elsewhere."
LAAAAAWLZ!
I should post a picture of myself to show you how utterly wrong that description is.
...I do wear glasses, though.
mccomber @ Jun 5th 2007 5:34PM
"His post was FILLED with inaccuracies and wild guesses. Odd for someone who claims to have researched it a lot."
Exactly. Reading what he wrote, I just kept thinking... um, no. His entire "kicker" paragraph implies that blu-ray isn't backwards compatible, and that it doesn't upconvert... informed indeed.
Bits summed up the future for this war very nicely:
"And all of that experience tells us this: HD-DVD is not going to win this format war. In fact, one of two things is possible right now: Either Blu-ray will win, or neither format will win. But the best HD-DVD can hope for is to just keep hanging in the game as long as possible."
Unless studios start defecting to the hd-dvd side, a MAJOR price drop occurs on the hd-dvd side, or Universal releases the most amazing film ever that everyone MUST own in HD, there really isn't anything on the horizon that will drastically change the course these two formats are on.
Space_Butler @ Jun 5th 2007 5:40PM
"So you're the ONE that bought it. I'd sell it too".
Actually, one of 13.5 thousand, which means there were 40,500 movies sold (remember, all 3 movies are in one box), compared to the grand 47k units the Pirates movies sold on blu-ray, despite having over 1 and a half million blu-ray "players" out there. Pathetic? How about less than 3% of blu-ray player owners actually BUYING discs. That's kind of pathetic. You're a really idiotic level of fanboy if you think that Blu-ray is even doing remotely well in terms of market penetration. Both formats are doing poorly in the whole market. You're being trollish about the next SACD.
By the way, thanks for making me as a PS3 owner ashamed to be one, knowing you're one as well.
Wayne @ Jun 5th 2007 5:46PM
Sell your HDDVD Player and pickup a PS3. Here in Australia Blu Ray and HDDVD Players are the same price as the PS3, some more expensive. Only a fool would buy anything other than a PS3, even if it is only for Hi Def movies...
Iridium @ Jun 5th 2007 5:47PM
Toshiba made millions upon millions from the licensing rights of DVD when Sony and Panasonic dropped thier version of DVD. When Sony went ahead and started to design a HD movie format, got almost every major studio and manufacturer to back it, Toshiba saw those millions in future licensing rights disappear. Rather than accept it like Sony did for DVD they decided to bring out thier own format which would have been DOA if not for Microsoft.
"Just Buy It" Microsoft is propping up HD-DVD. Everyone knows it but it just can't be proven. Its just like how you know that your roads are built using tax dollars funneled to the Mafia but there's a bagman in the way keeping you from the truth.
I bought a lot of Toshiba products in the past and loved them. Then I bought a 30" HDTV and peered inside to find a giant Orion logo. Well at least it was a good Orion TV. A few weeks ago I bought a 42" Toshiba 1080p HL167. It was a great price and had 24 months same as cash. I brought it home and over the next week found it to be a stinking load of crap, back to the store it went.
Toshiba is in serious trouble. Without Microsoft's money it may not be around soon. They are losing hundreds selling thier HD-DVD players (the cheap one can't output 1080p), giving away movies and $100 rebates. 36 months financing on all of thier TV's. All in all it does look like desperation. Just as people said that Sony is done for if BluRay fails (without much truth due to the size of Sony) it can be said that Toshiba is done for if HDDVD fails.
Sony isn't the only company that will profit from BluRay and that is why it will win. As it is now a company stands to make money with Bluray where they stand to lose money with HDDVD. If you are Samsun gwhy would you make a HDDVD player if you can't turn a profit on it due to Toshiba's pricing strategy. You can make a audioholic version for $2000 and sell 100 units or lose $100 on every consumer model you make when you don't have any licensing revenue to offset the loss. Its a pretty easy decision to not make a HDDVD product.
upz @ Jun 5th 2007 6:00PM
Samfish - glad you took it in good humor. But buy a PS3. We need the help.
Iridium @ Jun 5th 2007 6:10PM
As for the disc vs. downloadable argument:
Physical media will still reign supreme for the next 10 years. After that who knows. Maybe if the telco/cable companies cared more about providing a good service than ripping you off endlessly we could have the infrastructure necessary for HD content streaming. Fiber and Wimax are still a pipe dream for most of the USA and cable/DSL are too slow.
DVD will continue to be the market leader till 2010 but HDTV sales will spur HD movie players. DVD players have become a disposable commodity. If you look at the players available in the marketplace you see a field of discount off brand junk electronics selling for $30. There isn't any money left to be made in DVD hardware. The big guys were able to capitalize on upconversion to keep sales going but that is dropping to the 3rd tier as well. Electronic companies have to keep the endless cycle going to stay in business. That next cycle is HD and they won't make a dime off digital distribution. That is the upcoming war that will be fought starting in the next decade. Microsoft and other content based companies can secure billions in distribution rights where hardware companies cannot.
When HD movie prices drop to $20-24 more people will buy more movies. $34 is too expensive but it still beats downloading 20GB from the net.
I'm not interested in paying over $100 a month for a connection fast enough to make it worth while or setting up a terabyte home server to store everything. I'm barely interested enough now to pay $30 for broadband at home, in fact its a waste of money unless I start to play games online heavily again. However I've grown tired of online gaming after 10 years, nothing's really changed.
dalejrfanfreak @ Jun 5th 2007 6:26PM
Anyone claiming HD-DVD will win this format war has zero common sense. First off, anyone that disagrees with the statement I just said then read the article that this article is about. HD-DVD has ONE, JUST ONE major movie studio exlusively. Blu Ray has FIVE. Are ya'll telling me that with Disney, Sony, Lionsgate, etc that Blu Ray isn't going to murder Hd-dvd in sales? Oh wait, Blu Ray already IS murdering hd-dvd in sales 2-1. Anyone that buys an Hd-dvd player with this knowledge is a complete fool and is setting themselves up for a disappointment. Have fun watching the Matrix, i'll be watching CARS, Pirates of the Carribean, Saw, Casino Royale, and many many others.
kingofwale @ Jun 5th 2007 8:43PM
>"sorry mate, too busy enjoying the Matrix trilogy on it to listen to you rantings......"
lol, you'd not only be the only one with trilogy on HD-DVD, you are probably the only one who claimed the trilogy (especially the last 2) to be "enjoyable"
what's next, telling me you liked Crossroad? ;)
Breeze @ Jun 5th 2007 9:57PM
"what's next, telling me you liked Crossroad? ;)"
Don't you be dissing the Karate Kid RALPH MACCHIO.
#1FanBoy @ Jun 5th 2007 11:07PM
As an someone who pays each month for the playboy channel--let me say that I don't want HD porn. Gross.
samfish @ Jun 6th 2007 2:10AM
"Samfish - glad you took it in good humor. But buy a PS3. We need the help."
I figured/hoped it was sarcasm. Glad to hear it was.
I actually had a PS3 at one point, but sold it.
There just weren't any games for it that I liked. Really, I mostly just wanted to partake in the camp out festivities, since I missed the 360 launch.
Ultimate Alliance was alright, but not worth the price of the system. And Genji flat out sucked.
That coupled with $1200 dollar eBay prices made it hard to justify not selling it, admittedly.
Even though I have a personal boycott against Sony as a whole (sort of...I've been easing up lately), I'd buy one if there were at least 3 or 4 games I know I'd love on it. I'm weak like that.
Of course, in the unlikely event that someone gets Viewtiful Joe 3 or Godhand 2, they automatically get my money, regardless of how much the system costs!
carl @ Jun 6th 2007 9:05AM
The obese community prefer HD-DVD to bluray.
Stormkeep @ Jun 7th 2007 2:37AM
It's so obvious that alot of the HD-DVD supporters replying to this didn't even read the referenced articles.
Just another example of how HD-DVD fanatics don't seem to want to look at realities and would rather just spout off about it like the format-war is a matter of "faith". This ain't religion folks...
I found the articles interesting reads, and they echo my own sentiments.
Like Bill Hunt, I have absolutely NO bias either way, but I made the same predictions as he did based on the same realities. Either Blu-ray will win the format war, or neither format will...it's almost a foregone conclusion for those grounded in reality who look at the facts of the matterand not acting like some missionary intent on spreading the gospel of HD-DVD.
I personally would be perfectly content if HD-DVD was 'the one true' format that won over and this so-called format war was over, but the simple fact is that as things stand now, that is very, very unlikely.
Bill is calling it like he sees it, not being a fan boy...too bad the HD-DVD supporters choose to not even read what he has to say, and then throw criticism because he casts doubt on their faith.