Heavenly Sword called "half-assed" by Ninja Gaiden Guru
by Nick Doerr 
{ Aug 6th 2007 at 8:30AM }
Itagaki-san was quoted as saying: "I've never played a good game where the developers put a big icon of the button you're supposed to press onscreen ... I look at Heavenly Sword and it seems really half-assed, because it's asking you to do all these button-timing sequences but you are not getting much payoff from it." We have to disagree with Itagaki-san. For some of the actions you perform, there wouldn't be a really good substitute outside of timed button sequences. It's mostly for style and we enjoy watching them. With that in mind, we think there's a lot of potential for payoff.
Kyle Shubel, producer at Ninja Theory, responded to Itagaki's statement. It's a battle of words! "My response to Mr. Itagaki would be that the intent of the Hero sequences is to empower the player to experience events that would be nearly impossible to play in a natural platforming state ... for example, making the player run down ropes, leaping from rope to rope as they're being cut from underneath you, all while dodging other objects - that would be a frustrating experience to 99 percent of our users if we were to force them to do that manually." We agree, and we'll leave it at that.
[via N4G]
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
The1 @ Aug 6th 2007 8:39AM
You gotta love Itagaki Tomonobu, you can hate him or love. The man speaks his freaking mind which I think is so cool.
Brian @ Aug 6th 2007 8:44AM
Um God of War anyone?
Muzzy @ Aug 6th 2007 8:45AM
Do you think he said the same thing about God of War? Not sure about the first one but the second had the same sort of button sequence pressing and that i thought that was really good!!
ShadowHawk01 @ Aug 6th 2007 8:52AM
I am no fan of 'Timed Button' sequences. I think most games use them very poorly. In fact, Spiderman 3 comes to mind (yes.. I have played it... sadly). In a lot of games that use this technique they cause the game to lose value. Spiderman 3 used them in almost every boss battle which made the boss experience feel cheap and un-fulfilling. It became a 'Press X to defeat this boss' game.
However, there are times where they may have their purpose such as in the Rope sequence. Having said that, Team Ninja has done an exceptional job with Ninja Gaiden in giving the player control over the ninja's abilities. I believe that anything can be done without having to resort to 'timed-button pressing' and still make it possibly for the player to pull each move off.
I would be willing to bet that the 'Timed-Button' sequences in Heavenly Sword are limited to instances like the rope jump. However, if they made another 'Press X to defeat this boss' game I will probably pass on this game.
Michael K. @ Aug 6th 2007 8:57AM
how about God of War and Resident Evil 4, both are games that are far superior than mindless crap like heavenly sword and ninja gaiden
au815 @ Aug 6th 2007 9:07AM
Personaly I'm really looking forward to this game, I think that the 'Timed Button' sequences work within a game if used in moderation. I actualy enjoyed Tomb Raider Legend with its 'Timed Button' sequences. It helps to think of them like Interactive cut scenes.
GRT @ Aug 6th 2007 9:06AM
Yes, I'm sure he said the same thing about God of War. He also hates Devil May Cry.
It's funny how when a game designer speaks about another game, people get all agitated. Itagaki Tomonobu, like every other gamer out there, has his likes and dislikes. And what he likes are games that are very skill-based (ie, Ninja Gaiden).
If you take his comments about Heavenly Sword in-context (ie, if you've read/seen interviews with the guy and know a bit about him) this comment isn't at all surprising.
Metoo @ Aug 6th 2007 9:14AM
I enjoy the button sequences in GOW and RE4 because they flow well with the gameplay. There is a big payoff especially in GOW because it usually results in a big, gory finale for whatever monster you're skewering.
TRA's were okay, but felt a little tacked-on. I can't complain about interactivity during cut scenes though.
I do wish sequences like the HS rope run could have been done manually. It would have made it exhilarating to complete, kind of like when you get through a particularly horrible set of wall saws and rope leaps in Prince of Persia.
Khash @ Aug 6th 2007 9:24AM
God of War says hello.
phattie @ Aug 6th 2007 9:27AM
True Story: Ive never finished God of War 2 because of the FREAKIN final button sequence.. F*CK!... come ON.. i deserve to finish it. I dont have the reflexes of a 17 year old anymore.. :(
Brucie B @ Aug 6th 2007 9:27AM
LOL
Alex @ Aug 6th 2007 9:35AM
I happen to be a fan of his DOA series (including the volleyball).
Used to be really into DOA.
And I can still say I like Itagaki... because every interview has something so brash and extreme.
I may not agree with him, but speaking his mind is his right. And I enjoy it when it's funny. Especially the one interview where he openly said 17 year-old girls are gorgeous (I agree!).
Metoo @ Aug 6th 2007 9:41AM
There is a Codebreaker code for GOW 2 that lets you do slow motion speed. I've never tried it myself. Maybe it would work during these sequences? I had trouble with that one myself. I hate when they make you sit through exposition again after you die!
upz @ Aug 6th 2007 9:41AM
GRT:
"Itagaki Tomonobu, like every other gamer out there, has his likes and dislikes. And what he likes are games that are very skill-based (ie, Ninja Gaiden)."
He also likes Dead or Alive, which is undoubtedly the least skill-based of all the 3D fighters. What he really likes are games HE makes. Itagaki is pretty much the Uwe Boll of game designers, only some of his games end up not completely craptastic.
James @ Aug 6th 2007 9:48AM
I'm not a button masher fan, and the rope scene in the demo took me a while to do. I couldn't figure out the timed button presses seeing as I don't really play these games. In the end I think that it was a cool scene and I have no idea how I would implement it, but button pressing is like a 10 years ago feature. I'd be happy to see it go.
Alex @ Aug 6th 2007 9:51AM
@ upz
while i do realize that DOA has a negative repuation for b00bs with no depth, i can assure you that there is more to the DOA series than that.
comparing it to other fighters is apples and oranges IMO. with any decent fighter (i consider DOA decent)), the better player will win.
skill can be so many things, dexterity, memorized frame data, reaction timing, with lucky being the most minimal aspect.
i wouldn't be so fast to cast DOA at the bottom of the barrel.
jojo29 @ Aug 6th 2007 10:00AM
"i wouldn't be so fast to cast DOA at the bottom of the barrel."
I would. Why? You said skill can be so many things, with lucky being the most minimal aspect, yet DoA is soley based on luck.
Say your a decent fighter, and you play against a rookie. All he has to get in are 2-3 counters, and your pretty much dead. Thats all it breaks down to is who gets the counters in, which is made by pushing to buttons at the same time, back and x button.
With that being said, i too enjoy DoA though. Kasumi rocks :)
Zumafire @ Aug 6th 2007 10:04AM
I thought the timed button sequences were great. I'd do it over and over again. It was fast paced, intense and gorgeous. I like Tomonobu, he's got this rock star attitude and openly comments on games and systems. Plus he and his team make great games. Who cares if he slams a game. It doesn't effect the way I feel about it. It's actually sort of funy when he says stuff like that. I say Keep it up!!. It definitly keeps everything interesting.
Mazdak @ Aug 6th 2007 10:04AM
I don't know, I fell in love with timed button sequences the first time I encountered them (Dark Cloud) and believe games like GoW and RE4 only improved on that formula. In the end, though, isn't this what all platformers are? I mean you run toward the edge of one platform, time your jump and press a button; seems like these sequences just give that tried and true formula a bit more cinematic quality.
Either way, I respect that people don't like button press sequences, they're not for everyone I suppose.
Edge @ Aug 6th 2007 10:14AM
Itagaki-san is quickly becoming one of my favorite people in the game industry. He has the no bull attitude I appreciate, and I think more people should adopt it. He is a genius marred by scandal and under-appreciated in the age he lives.
I think he is right on target about Heavenly Sword and his earlier comments about DMC being all flair and no substance. People need to get the glare of cinema-games games out of their eyes and start seeing these games for what they are. Shallow.
And why do people attack DOA4? So what if it isn't super technical like your favorite fighting game. Who gives a crap if it's skill based or not. Are you such a sore loser that you only have fun when you are winning? People love to button mash and rely on a little luck, outside of a handful of pathetic Tekken kiddies whose life aspirations will peak in middle school. Stop harping on "skillz" like gaming is a profession. Unless you make six figures on gaming...every year, you have no right to use your deluded, self-aggrandizing self-image as the standard the rest of the world should be held to. Back on topic...
What's worse than this...Heavenly Sword is a God of War clone BECAUSE of this FMV-style action sequence, and anyone who can't see it is blind or a sucker.
kingnick @ Aug 6th 2007 10:18AM
I agree with 6.
@17. It’s a lot harder to pull off counters in DOA4 against a skilful opponent who alternates between high, mid and low moves/combos.
Like Itagaki I despise on-screen button presses (timed or otherwise) as they take me out of the game and feel skilless and unsatisfying.
James @ Aug 6th 2007 10:23AM
Hey, HMV is taking pre-orders for Metal Gear Solid 4, for the X-Box 360. Guess it is going to the other side after all.
Freeze @ Aug 6th 2007 10:23AM
To Upz @ 13
No way is Tomonobu in the same rank as Uwe Boll. Tomonobu is a very creative and skilled game designer. Uwe has the creativeness of a 9 year old. So, that there is an insult. Tomonobu is better than Uwe. Heck, I bet if you put Tomonobu behind the camera, he can bust out some good hit movies.
Ghaleon @ Aug 6th 2007 10:23AM
He's right, quicktime events are like playing SEGA CD FMV games or Dragon's Lair. Junk game design.
Edge @ Aug 6th 2007 10:31AM
Jojo, in DOA4, there are FOUR classes of counters, though most human players are only acquainted with two (mid-punch, mid-kick). Alternating high and low attacks is probably the best way to counter someone who is good with counters.
Seriously, people don't give DOA4 enough credit for it's depth and fun.
Mazdak: The fundamental error is that if you press X at two different times and they don't do the exact same thing, then it's not the same. In most games you are prompted with the controls once and only once. With these action sequences, you get prompts for actions unrelated to the default mapping. I would submit that it is BETTER than just watching the action, but it should not be mistaken as gameplay. It's a way to engage the gamer and bring them into the cutscene with a cinematic APPROXIMATION of what the keystroke does, but nothing more.
mccomber @ Aug 6th 2007 10:37AM
Itagaki is such a damn rockstar it's awesome. Forget the fact that the only great game he's made (and it is bloody brilliant) has been remade 3 times, and that everything else he touches lands between meh and crap; he's like a Japanese Jaffe. Does his response make me want to play Heavenly Sword any less? Hell no, I don't give a damn what games he likes to play or how he feels about button sequences. He probably (publicly) wouldn't like 90% of the games I love.
Shubel's response, although 100% based in truth and reality, is just way too polite and British. He totally should have gone for the jugular, called Itagaki out and started a East/West war of the developers. Like, a literal war.
Tremada @ Aug 6th 2007 10:55AM
After playing the demo, I really doubt I will buy this game. I really feel something lacking with the demo.
Edge @ Aug 6th 2007 11:14AM
Heavenly Sword's producer came back to reply: If they had forced players to tackle these kinds of sequences in standard platforming style, it would have been frustrating.
Yes, it would have. But it could have been fulfilling to succeed. You can always take the "easier" hero sequence, but they could add a payoff for taking the road less traveled.
Also, the question arises: Why isn't the hero in these "Hero" sequences always this agile or powerful? As soon as the player gets full control back, wouldn't they feel a little... hobbled?
tomtom @ Aug 6th 2007 11:47AM
ooo, i love me some Ninja Gaiden. 3.5 years down the road and it's still a blast to play on my XBOX. i'd get Sigma but i'm waiting for the PS3 to go down in price.
i played GOW: which has a great story, but the gameplay is like meh after the 100th fatality. (what's up with mapping the roll technique to the right analogue stick instead of blocking and flick the left like NG?)
DMC is all about combos too, but frankly DMC and GOW feel like tank simulators compared to Ninja Gaiden.
now i'm hearing that Heavenly Sword has NO jump button? yay, way to improve upon the tank games.
and motion capture vs. hand animated cinema sequences: GoW had great hand animated sequences but the motion capture in HS looks creepy smooth and lifeless kinda like Polar Express (google that movie).
DOA is fun but it is not very skill based. it feels like everyone fights the same too. it's all about Soul Calibur and Virtua Fighter baby!
Itagaki, bring us Ninja Gaiden 2 soon please!
SuicideNinja @ Aug 6th 2007 12:00PM
"mindless crap like heavenly sword and ninja gaiden"
Ninja Gaiden is far from such. Although the PS3 version of the game is "noobified" (at many parts) compared to the Xbox versions, it takes a lot more skill than God of War or RE4 (I like RE4...GoW wore thin rather quickly). But Itagaki is not to blame for the PS3 version.
Anyway, I think the timed button sequences are fine. The game itself (based on the demo) doesn't control well...and unlike reviewers have said, it feels a hell of lot like God of War (sans jump button). I was really disappointed, but will probably buy it anyway just because it's "supposed" to be good.
tomtom @ Aug 6th 2007 12:20PM
@30 SuicideNinja (zomg that name is cool!)
what parts of Sigma were noobified?
i wanna know so i don't have to waste money!
Parker @ Aug 6th 2007 12:50PM
I loved the timed button sequences in God of War, I loved them in Resident Evil and so far it looks like I will love them as well in Heavenly Sword. I find the cinematic quality that these games possess to be really cool. The timed button sequences is just an extension of that. Bringing you these over the top, impossible moments that you just could not accomplish manually.
rodsky @ Aug 6th 2007 2:04PM
NINJA GAIDEN is pretty much one of the best games ever made, hard to live up to or compare other games to it, great skill level, even when the game gets really hard it doesnt make you want to quit, you wanna try again and again cuz you know you can do it and there plenty of fun killing all kinds of enemies with the different attacks and weapons
also killing a boss is very fulfilling cuz those fights arent really a walk in the park
been playing it on my 360 but im gonna get Ninja Gaiden Sigma, it looks a lot better but from the videos it looked like it was easier to pull off combos with the 2 swords
Ste @ Aug 6th 2007 1:24PM
What is bad about them? They are usually during things that - in other games - would just be a cut scene. I don't buy a videogame to watch it, I buy it to interact with it. Having button sequences during cut scenes is excellent and makes the entire thing much more enjoyable.
Really, what is bad about them? Edge, what is wrong about X not doing the same thing twice? How about games that use context sensitive controls, are they bad too?
I cannot see how bringing a player into a cutscene, rather than forcing them to sit and watch it, is bad. I guess Itgaki must hate Guitar Hero, since the buttons are never off the screen! Not only that, but calling an entire game "half-assed" based on one tiny part of the game play is utterly rediculous.
GRANTED @ Aug 6th 2007 1:33PM
yeah i know it sounds terrible that you can't jump in HS, but honestly theres so much going on that you don't really notice. the jumping occurs if you time your combos correctly. and the combos are badass.
people love to pretend like this game is miss features or is half-assed. the reality is that it looks quality--the best made game for the ps3 so far. have you seen some of the cutscene previews? they pretty witty/funny. I wasn't expecting it.
as for button mashing--it beats watching a cutscene and just sitting there. because that's the alternative.
never$$hort @ Aug 6th 2007 1:43PM
I thought the button timing sequences worked fine in the beginning of the demo and I also think that part of the game would have been incredibly frusterating if I had to do it all manually... Who the hell wants to die over and over again just because you couldn't get off the the freakin ropes!!! I think people are being far to critical of every PS3 game that is released, its like they don't want any game to do well!! Its really starting to get retarded, I mean a craptastic game on the 360 always seems to get by with at least decent ratings where with the PS3 they go over every aspect of the games with a fine tooth comb looking for any errors as SLIGHT as they may be and then glorify that slight error all over the media... BS
P.S.- Don't listen to this joker, HS is a fuckin awsome game!!!
HineyWipe @ Aug 6th 2007 2:27PM
This is what happens when you have...expectations!!!
Jeez. Buy the game and play it, or don't. Move along then. And God Of War fanboys...enough already.
Jeff @ Aug 6th 2007 2:36PM
I couldn't care less what he says. Releasing a port of an Xbox 1 Game on the PS3 is half-assed. There now we are even. Speaking of ports, why is when ever the Wii gets a port of say a PS2 game nobody cares. Then the PS3 gets a port and everybody is like all the ps3 gets are ports. And I know it's like somebody has to find something wrong with EVERY PS3 game. Just let Sony have it's day with these games.
BTW MGS4 is still exclusive.
Dahk @ Aug 6th 2007 2:55PM
@ Jeff
Because when the Wii gets ports, they usually try to make something different from it cuz of the new controllers. In terms of graphics, there's usually not much difference, but gameplay wise, it does make somewhat of a difference - and sometimes its still horrible, and people realize that, and sometimes its good i.e. RE4.
But when PS3 gets a port, because of the nature of the PS3, its a lot more difficult to get BETTER. It doesn't have unique features that set it apart gameplay wise (except for crappy implementations of SIXAXIS), so it has to push itself with graphics, which no one can do properly (except the newer ones which even now still lack)
In any case, timed sequences are a 50/50 for me. Sometimes I just like watching and admiring, and then if the timed sequences come on, i can't watch no longer, because I'm concentrated on getting the button right lol. But in other times, like the rope thing, it all adds to the effect which I think is really cool. And plus that was like a PUNY part of heavenly sword which I think will turn out to be an awesome game.
Dahk @ Aug 6th 2007 2:56PM
Oh... and uh. Everyone knew MGS4 was purely exclusive ever since E3 lol. Why are you making that comment?
ForceUnleashed @ Aug 6th 2007 3:31PM
@ Dahk
Because recently a "rumor" popped up that HMV had MGS4 for the 360 on Pre-Order for Fall of next year I believe.
This of course caused the sony defense force to implode and resulted in a flame war of course.
Then an update was provided in which HMV claimed it was an "error". sony fanboys rejoiced.
Personally I think Konami screamed bloody murder at HMV about leaking this news and forced them to shut up.
However I don't want to piss off the sony fanboys and their overlords here at ps3fanboy so I'll say that as of now MGS4 remains a ps3 exclusive.
However I think it will come to the 360. Probably as a timed exclusive. Hopefully at the same time though...
One can only hope.
secret @ Aug 6th 2007 3:51PM
If Tomonobu Itagaki felt that interactive cutscenes were bad and then urged Ninja Theory to include it in Heavenly Sword, then that's another thing.
I wonder if he thinks that serpant-fish girl has a hot body, too. I'd like his opinion on that...lol
joel @ Aug 7th 2007 7:29AM
has this guy heard of God of War 1 and 2? Those were some of the best fight sequences in any game. He's just tryin to hate on the competition.
Pajama Party! @ Aug 6th 2007 10:47PM
I love that despite owning a console which has a 33% failure rate (with the very real potential to grow to 100%) and less than a half-dozen "must-own" games, 360 fans still come to these sites en masse to pounce on every scrap of anti-Sony news with an even greater sense of superiority than hardcore DS fans.
I guess that's what happens when you own a console that's constantly in the shop with a library that simply doesn't measure up to the amount of noise made about it.
Get over it guys. Itagaki is a horse's ass. He makes good games to be sure, but I've never seen anyone live in such perpetual resentment/inferiority of what came before him. Listening to Itagaki spout off about Ninja Gaiden vs. Devil May Cry is like watching Andy Warhol get bent out of shape over Roy Lichtenstein. Now matter how eloquently (or ineloquently in Tomonobu's case) they pharse it, in the end they're just bent out of shape because someone else came up with an idea first. Whether it's Pop art or the Devil May Cry-style sub-genre of action game.
I also wonder if as many people in this thread would be cheering him on if Heavenly Sword had remained an Xbox (360) exclusive? Probably not considering most of you seem to be a bunch of Xbots in the first place.
upz @ Aug 6th 2007 4:49PM
Force, logically speaking, I agree with you. I detailed my rationale in the post for this week's PS3 releases and it goes along with your logic, except that I would bet that it was Sony, not Konami, that screamed bloody murder. After all, Sony has much more to lose if this rumor turned out to be true.
However, though your reasoning is sound, your meanspirited jabs make your delivery far from respectable. Because of that, I'm going to wager that you're going to be left "only hoping."
komrad @ Aug 6th 2007 6:16PM
Yea, He plays that pseudo rebel in black well. His lines are right on par with the script. Can't wait for that game he imagines he's in to come out. Meanwhile I'll be playing heavenly sword no doubt.
Mason @ Aug 7th 2007 6:07AM
The demo just reminded me way too much of the old sega cd games. The visuals were awesome, but the combat itself seemed to become repetitive by the end of the demo! Pulling off an amazing move should fell as cool as it looks, rather then just pressing buttons PaRappa style.
Xiru @ Aug 6th 2007 9:09PM
Am I the only one that likes Heavenly Sword better than Ninja Gaiden Sigma? I've played maybe 5 hours of Sigma and got bored. The Heavenly Sword demo has me hooked. I really fell in love with the cut scenes. Anyway, I definatley like HS better than NGS. Guess i'm weird like that.
Consolcwby @ Aug 6th 2007 11:26PM
@Xiru: No, you're not the only one. What I've played so far, I am enjoying HS better - but I'm not comparing the two!
@Everyone: I think that's the point everyone has been missing on the HS/NGS/GOW debates - the three games are NOT the same. GOW is a button mashing, high jumping, testosterone filled, in your face, fantasy brute force game. NGS is a quick, combo driven, patience testing, pay attention or die, ninja fantasy game. HS is (seems) a tactically combo driven, counter mashing, in air bitchslapping, pms induced, fantasy sword revenge game. All three share similarities (swords, combos, lots of dudes to kill) in execution, but they are still all different experiences. Comparing them together is like comparing Halo/Haze/The Darkness because they're all FPSs. =S And I don't think it's fair to the games. Sure, if you like NGS, maybe HS is too simplistic for you. Or if you liked GOW, this might be too difficult for you. So, you don't like it. That's fine, but comparing them as if they are all sequels to each other is unfair, to not only the fans but also to the games themselves. While I liked GOW - I'm falling in love with HS. NGS was a bit too frustrating at times, although it did bring a crack-like addiction to beating the levels until halfway through when I got stuck. I enjoy a challenge, but not if I can't get through one STUPID PART! =S But, that's only my opinion of an otherwise fine game. But I don't hate on it because it was different or similar to GOW or HS. And that's the point I'm trying to make.
MCX @ Aug 7th 2007 5:59AM
I hope we are not judging HS on just the 3min demo. Give it a chance to prove its self. There is plenty to time to bash it later if it really sucks. Which I doubt.