Gabe Newell trashes PS3's Cell architecture

by Nick Doerr { Aug 25th 2007 at 2:00PM }

Holy insufferable insults, Batman! It's yet another personality who wants to belittle the PS3 and its Cell processor. Valve's own Gabe Newell gave a talk at Leipzig the other day and did their share of doling out insults to both the 360 and PS3, while showering compliments on the PC. When asked how development was coming on the PS3, Newell replied with the usual difficult-to-program-for spiel: "I don't think they spent nearly enough time talking to developers when they were developing the PS3. It's less friendly for developers ... It's a hardware architectural problem. I don't think they thought through the Cell architecture. The hardware is only as good as the software it enables."

That's techno-babble for "the PS3 is only as good as its games," which is true. Just like a child, the PS3 will grow and mature, looking better and better with every passing year. The software are only as good as the developers, you could switch it up and say as they familiarize themselves with the architecture, they'll pull more and more out of the console than they initially believed. Even so, Newell thinks Sony should have followed Intel's multi-core approach to expedite this learning process. What are your thoughts on the relation between the PS3, its games, and developers? Who's holding who back?

Tags: gabenewell, valve

Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)

Darkdrium777 @ Aug 25th 2007 2:11PM

Well it`s not surprising considering that Valve is originally a PC developper. Still, trashing something because you don`t understand it fully is immature, I thought better of Valve.

Jldowning @ Aug 25th 2007 2:14PM

I have only one thing to say to that man. Wear Black, and Wear Layers.

Aside from that, we've seen devs I respect more then this guy say the PS3 is no harder to program for, just something new to learn.

And we've had Devs say, it just takes longer to program for.

Then there is the EA type devs who say its a hardware problem.

The truth, is likely somewhere in the middle, as it almost always is.

secret @ Aug 25th 2007 2:15PM

Calculus and the other higher mathematics are supposed to be harder than arithmetic. Of course it's harder. It offers more than the basics. But, in any case, there are students who complain it's hard and blame everyone else and then quit. There are students who complain their asses off and blame everyone but themselves and try but still fail. There are students who naturally just whiz by like a piece of cake. And then there are students who struggle night and day and endure hardship and manage to pass with honors. All developers should fall under one or two categories. But then there are developers who mess up on person because they have a secret contract for one year to make all ports as ugly as possible so that MS would have an advantage for a year or so.

Jldowning @ Aug 25th 2007 2:19PM

Sorry, wanted to add this...

Not to say hes wrong, the PC will almost always be the better choice, if you have that choice to make. I for one cannot wait to upgrade my PC to rejoin the PC gamers. PC/PS3/Wii! (here is to the hope that Fable 2, and Halo 3 don't to long to get ported to the PC!)

Jigzat @ Aug 25th 2007 2:40PM

Ok, I'm software engineering student and i can tell you that the main difference betwen 360 and PS3 is that the 360 processor is symmetric like most PCs processors so you don't have to worry too much about using every core and balancing the use of each one. You just develop almost the same way as before and the processor itself will distribute the work, but if you want to use all the processing power you must develop just like you would on the PS3. Since the PS3 is asymmetric you must sync and balance every process and data. So at the end they are almost the same. Of course i cannot talk about development kits since i dont have access to one of those.

snwboarderx @ Aug 25th 2007 2:41PM

Looks like he could use the wii fit.

sectionz @ Aug 25th 2007 2:41PM

yes gabe .. the cell is no where near as powerful as all of those hohos you have been scarfing with your google ad word monies!

railven @ Aug 25th 2007 2:44PM

I worked on a simple PC game using the HL engine in college and I have to say is this:

If you can code a PC game, a console game is a walk in the park!

Why? Well because PC games have to account for a laundry list of variables. They have to work with the lowest common denominator and then scale.

If we had no X1300/G8300 the PC gaming world would be more of a marvel then it is now.

But with that knowledge I know, console programing is straight forward in commands. They work on a linear system unlike PCs.

I call BS on his little complaint. If ID can do it, Valve can do it. Both companies have been around long enough to learn most tricks of the trade.

mccomber @ Aug 25th 2007 2:46PM

Well, it seems that it's harder for some developers than others...

MisterL @ Aug 25th 2007 2:52PM

People are taking this way out of context. "The hardware is only as good as the software it enables". It's more likely he meant that software should not be a pain to develop on the hardware. If it is a pain, then the hardware is poorly designed (not poor in performance). How would you feel as a developer if a company made a piece of hardware, threw it at you and told you to make AAA games without providing you with AAA devkits/documentation/support? The pressure is on the developers and I hate it when people only criticize developers. As of right now, the lack of support and good documentation from Sony to developers are to blame imo (EA excluded, they have no excuse).

phattie @ Aug 25th 2007 2:53PM

If he shaved his head, he would be a perfect Homer Simpson.

Ieu-ee @ Aug 25th 2007 2:57PM

Well I've never developed a game in my life but alot of the issues seem to come from trying to port an X360 game into PS3. Sure that may seem quicker to do in the short term but the developer isn't really using the Cell as it was intended.

I can see a point where dedicated PS3 devs will blossom creating truly amazing games while the 'porters' will be left behind and sticking with platform they can program for.

Sadly I think that this will lead to a lack of great games on the PS3, something it really needs after the amazing lead Microsoft and even Nintendo have made with both devs and fans...

WTangoFoxtrot @ Aug 25th 2007 3:03PM

doesnt the fact that so many developers are complaining about the problems in programming for the PS3 show sony to a certain extent that they made a mistake trying out such a new tech for the console ?

secret @ Aug 25th 2007 3:04PM

The Wii seems to lack games the most. I'm not hearing much hype about any of the Wii games. And any wii mote game can eventually be done with the sixaxis and the Eyetoy thing, whatever it is. Just look at that nice looking girl though in the pic below about the eyetoy.

Prothean @ Aug 25th 2007 3:10PM

He looks like he swallowed one too many PS3s.

KiraXD @ Aug 25th 2007 3:12PM

someone quick.. photoshop a bag of doritos or a beer in his hand!

lol yeah, someone buy this guy a wii fit for xmas.

secret @ Aug 25th 2007 3:21PM

But it's funny how no one talks about the Wii's lack of games. The PS3 has awesome games. I own Ninja Gaiden Sigma, Motorstorm, Virtua Fighter 5, Marvel Ultimate Alliance, Fight Night 3, Call of Duty 3, GRAW2, and Resistance Fall of Man. I'm still debating on NBA street homecourt or just to wait for the sequel if it's coming out. I'm currently sitting pretty while MGS4, COD4, Ratchet & Clank, and Grand Turismo 5 (maybe I'll get this one. This one will seal the graphics debate indefinitely as to which console has the best graphics forever once it comes out). If I were to buy the Wii, I'd might buy Zelda and maybe Prime and a few mario games, but then what else? Aren't all those PS3 games mentioned above enough already??? I mean, how many games are people supposed to own anyways? I don't want to waste too much money on things that don't make money. I'd be a fat cow for companies to slaughter and eat like the xbox360 owners are.

What I've read on N4G, and I'm not sure I understand it correctly so I suggest you look it up on that websijte for reference is that one of the secret and unseen power of the PS3 so far is that it's capable of what's called 4d graphics, and not so fast, don't throw up your hands in disgust just yet. What they define as 4d grphics is real life, living and breathing graphics and evolve and grow. Water hitting a piece of wood for intance would cause that wood to decay and rot over time as in real life. Mold would grow in the bathtub on its own over time. Shattered window glasses would reflect less vividly.Light bulbs would grow dimmer as they age. This is all possible and made easier only with the PS3 architecture. It's said that with the 360 limiations, it's would be impossible to practically do.

I only skimmed the article because it's so technically jargoned, but you might want to sift through it to make sure I'm correct or not. But I'm sure it's sometihng that only the PS3 can do well at the moment.

And most people don't realize it, but he PS3 is about graphics and details that people don't see -- like small cracks inside cracks on a wall. When people say the grpahics look better and so on for another console, they're mainly praising the artists style and not the technical powers of the system subconsciously. Drawn well in style, the Wii or the 360 can have a tree with only 500 leaves and a sharp edged blocky trunk, but everyone will say it looks much better than the PS3 even though thte PS3 has nearly 100,000 leaves per tree with more trees int he scenery and rounded realistic trunks because it's either taken for granted or just not drawn well artistically or held to a much higher standard. Look at the snow in Lost Planet versus the snow in Ratchet and Clank or Resistance Fall of Man. People should give credit where credit is due. Look at the blocky hair and oversized tiles and bricks and blurred out walls in Gears of War and Lost planet compared to the millions of individual bricks (one by one) for each building in resistance fall of man and hte rubbles in MGS4. People don't pay attention to these small details and then complain. It's so small that no one notices that Gears has four big blurry slabs of bricks while Resistance actually has every single brick of a full size building shown. No one pays attention to that stuff. Of course, I'm exaggerating to get my point across though....

GRANTED @ Aug 25th 2007 3:27PM

he would destroy a wii fit. it wouldn't stand a chance.

still looking forward to the orange box. they better be making love with the cell processor before it comes out--i want to team fortress running at 60 fps please.

secret @ Aug 25th 2007 3:29PM

Cell is new and one of it's kind. Rare at the moment. Like learning anything new, it's going to be hard -- OBVIOUSLY. Remember how Algebra used to be hard? How hard is it now? It's a piece of cake...!!!!!! AND now it's a foundation of everything else.

Like in learning tennis for the first time. Remember how hard it was? The way they force you to hold the thing and demand you to swing in a certain way. Boy, everyone was complaining. After a while, you're hitting balls 60 to 100 mph. Remember how hard it was when you first tried learning how to ride a bike or learned how to swim the first time around. That's so freakin obvious. How long has the Cell been around in gaming? Since when is learning new things fast and easy and don't require much work.

apease @ Aug 25th 2007 3:30PM

Of course the PC is easier to develop for, when the consumer has to spend $1500 for a decent one. You don't have to worry about optimizing much, since your audience will be more than happy to upgrade as long as you promise more features.

Consoles have to make a lot of compromises to sell a decent system at a reasonable price. The 360 compromised by putting in more transistors than it could cool, and even then it compromised by using a multi-core cpu (developers HATED multi-core when the 360 was announced). I think you'll find a lot of 360 games mainly use the one core, unless the developer purchased some middle-ware that uses the other two.

The ps3 compromised by putting all the transistors it could into registers for actual calculations, as opposed to memory management, forcing developers to handle memory management IF and ONLY IF they wish to use the Cell's spus. Developers are free, as with the 360, to simply use the main PPC core. The result won't win any awards for graphics, but it'll be much easier to port. And slowly, there's various middle-ware solutions that use the spus so the devs don't have to, including Sony's Edge tools, which are free.

PC developers always seem to complain whenever they're forced to deal with something different. They bitched when sound cards came out ("different hardware to support"), they bitched when 3D cards came out ("different hardware, plus all games would look alike"), then they bitched when Windows made it so all the different hardware would use one API ("The API sucks!" okay, I'll grant that one), then they howled when multi-core cpus came out. I think the only change game developers liked was the 32-bit flat mode of Dos4gw. And the original vga hardware as used in DOS... that was good too.

secret @ Aug 25th 2007 3:30PM

But you have to admit that some peole learn faster than others. Some are natuals and don't even need much teaching or practice or training, but those are rare. The rest either quit, blame others for their failures, or work day and night in blood and sweat and endure what they must endure to finally win the girl.

secret @ Aug 25th 2007 3:32PM

4D, i think they said is also possible with some of the most high end PC's, but i'm guessing your int he realm of $1000 to $3000 dinosauars for something that a quick and nimble younster like thE ps3 CAN DO IN circles many times over again.

GRANTED @ Aug 25th 2007 3:33PM

oops meant to say a wii BOARD SOORRRYYY

f0de @ Aug 25th 2007 3:46PM

you guys are all completely missing the point... he's bitching out loud about the learning curve to program on the ps3... and simply saying that if sony were to go with something more common.. like a quad core xeon or some other multi core intel chipset.. everyone would know what to do with it.. and it would be as easy as pie.. of course dual quad core xeon chips would have been a bit more expensive then a measly 600 bones..

sicklesdawg @ Aug 25th 2007 5:17PM

Now i know where Trey&Matt got their WoW stereotype from. Lmao!!!

Sam @ Aug 25th 2007 5:29PM

Lol@ all these ps3 fanboy straight insults at Gabe just because he's overweight.

Thats some petty fanboyism right there. Somebody insults your precious system and you just jump on their physical appearance because you dont have a clever retort.

Respect your elders kids. Gabe newell created half life, the game which basically created the mould for all future FPS games.

Disclaimer: PsWii60 Owner.

Phil @ Aug 25th 2007 5:32PM

Oddly enough... lots of people - including Sony have all admitted that the PS2 is hard to develop on...

So that somewhat leaves his comments with no value in my mind...

Especially if you take into consideration the PS2 as an allegedly notoriously hard to develop software for platform then think wait a minute... I can get HL on my PS2...

I despise people no matter what age who aren't up for a challenge - looking at GT5 and Haze (to name but two) the rewards for it must be worth it.

Isn't there plans to make the CELL/B.E. into other devices too?

Joey_Numbers @ Aug 25th 2007 5:41PM

wah wah wah... its too hard... wah wah
---------------------------
seriously tho

I bought the PS3 to see what guys like Newell could develop using the cell. The cell can produce calculations at the rate of a super computer, but getting it to do it... well... good think engineers are very competitive. When it gets done, and it will, watch out.

--------------------------
UT3. Haze. MGS. Killzone

Bring it on!

ruibing @ Aug 25th 2007 5:47PM

Well there goes my respect for Valve. I liked the Half Life series, but how can I possibly respect a developer who bashes other platforms. It is either arrogance, excuse, marketing ploy, or a lack of attention to them during the last few months.

Service_Games @ Aug 25th 2007 5:48PM

Sony seems to be sticking by the attitude of, "We can do it, so you should be able to." And, I'm really not sure how much support they are giving developers to truly make use of the PS3's architecture.

From what articles I've read, though, I'm going to have to blame Sony for this one. I really think they need to get on the ball with helping developers understand the inner-workings of the PS3 as well as its libraries.

SG

Drew @ Aug 25th 2007 6:22PM

PSWii60 ftw!

Popfrogs @ Aug 25th 2007 6:43PM

New title for the article:

"Gabe Newell trashes PS3's Cell architecture, waistband of Hanes, seams of Levis"

Seriously, I don't have a whole lot of respect for the one-trick-pony that is Gabe's company. They've only made Half Life for what, 7 or so years now? Not only that but are they handling the ports in-house? I thought they had other shops port HL1 to the PS2 and other consoles back in the day.

Darren Tilley @ Aug 25th 2007 6:52PM

Umm.. I really hope he isn't saying that in regards to the Orange Box port. I've been so looking forward to Team Fortress 2, and If I get another sloppy port, I'm going to freak out.

Popfrogs @ Aug 25th 2007 7:00PM

Found a good picture of him from the conference:

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/8742/gabenewellxg9.png

matjet @ Aug 25th 2007 8:50PM

remember valve isn't making teamfortress on ps3, they contracted ea to make the ps3 version. so there is a very good probability that this gabe hasn't even touched ps3 code and given it a chance.

adam @ Aug 25th 2007 9:20PM

that guy is fat as all hell.

adam @ Aug 25th 2007 9:26PM

@27

i don't care about half-life or fps games. so i will call him fat as much as i want.

he's going to die soon if he doesn't take care of himself. exercise Gabe!

Seb @ Aug 25th 2007 10:20PM

i believe we have all heard these complaints before - roughly 10 years ago when the ps2 was the fresh face in the console arena... developers complaining about it being too complicated to program, too limited system resources, developed w/o having the programmers in mind. now look how far it has come. compare ps2 1st/2nd/3rd gen games to games that have been released in the last 2 years and you can clearly tell the difference in the skills of the programmers.

however, from a business perspective, new hardware is a problem for the games studios as every new game is a substantial investment and then you don't want millions of your budget "wasted" on titles that get only 70% ratings and the user community bickering about dropping frame rates. especially the "independent" developers that work on cross-platform titles are between a rock and a hard place there, as they clearly do not have the man- and financial power to just lock away a bunch of developers to produce code that is optimal for each and every system around.

P.S.: please someone tell this guy that diabetes and heart disease are not pleasant - even if you might make big bucks doing video games...

Jay @ Aug 25th 2007 11:25PM

man you know what. most of the cell patents are from ibm. so you say ps3 cell architecture you also talking about ibm...yet you praise pc...damn fucking fannatic fanboy. nerd quit playing video games so much and go out and loose some weight. i wouldnt diss u if u hadnt made me so mad

yeah he shaved his head and looks like homer lol

Jay @ Aug 25th 2007 11:33PM

by the way. developers are lazy. shut up cuz working with computers is difficult. hehe no but really what do you want, u want it handed to u on a golden plate? u want big revenues then work ur ass off mofucker!

zeh @ Aug 26th 2007 2:09AM

Funny words coming out of gabe there.... the source engine really is a massive resource hog on the cpu and has terrible efficiency. Valve can make really great single player experiences yet they can't make engines for s... and any decent multiplayer they have they have has been bought from mod teams.

wii360dsPS3PC @ Aug 26th 2007 2:15AM

As owner of both a 360 and PS3, I can't say that I'm super-thrilled with the PS3 Fall/Winter line-up. While I splurged for the price cut, there's not much to be excited about in 2007. Remember, at this point in the 360s lifecycle, we had a holiday with both Gears of War AND Rainbow Six Vegas.

The second holiday season for the PS3 is coming and there's almost nothing to be excited about. I'm aching for little big planet and eye of judgement, but until a real date comes for GT and MGS, there's not much to play.

The 360 is going into its third holiday season with some formidable exclusives (Bioshock, Mass Effect, Halo 3, Blue Dragon) and a price cut. I will buy and play them all.

I've got the sinking feeling that Sony is repeating mistakes of the PSP with the PS3 and piling on technical complications for good measure.

stephenb @ Aug 26th 2007 4:34AM

Dont think it is difficult to code for. Just think his podgy fingers keep pressing the wrong keys.

Mak @ Aug 26th 2007 7:36AM

Basically Valve are lazy. In Summary.

They like the PC, as it's been around yonks. They don't like 360 because it's only 18 months old, they dislike the PS3 even more, as it's even newer.

They want to develop for PC, because their developers are lazt and dumb.

cheese @ Aug 26th 2007 3:05PM

As immature as you may think the comments may sound, they're right. Much like Gabe Newell's idiotic comments, I know people that swear up and down that Halo is the best FPS out there, and who could not get into Gears of War, whereas I will give equal time to both games, without saying one or the other is broken or unbalanced. I hear it alot, people blaming a game for their inability to play it. The same is true for the PS3, there are many devs who have as many problems getting acquainted to the system. I bet Gabe has people that work with him that have cited some problems that they run into but secretly think he's a big idiot for whining about it like a little bitch, instead of surpassing the issues by researching or asking for assistance from other devs.

Frankenstein Black @ Aug 26th 2007 5:53PM

Oh Yeaaaaaa! "Hey KoolAid!"

Consolcwby @ Aug 26th 2007 7:57PM

Valve must be in crunch-mode for Gabe to do this much bitching: Complains about the 360, then Vista, then the PS3 - what's next?... Wii, DS, PSP, OSX, and the iPhone?? =D I swear, him being a little chunky doesn't exactly paint a good picture when many people on the net think all devs are lazy! =/ Chunkiness is what happens when you sit on your butt all day, coding, while hurriedly eating cold pizzas, and drinking tons of Coke/Pepsi/Jolt/(place product here)! =D It's a hazzard of being in the biz... =/ But most of his comments should've been expected in the first place - it's hard to develop for 3 new technologies within as many years, and NOT get a little flustered and enbittered! =( Poor, poor Gabe...

Saigon @ Aug 27th 2007 8:06AM

@28...yes the cell will be used in other hardware devices...IBM has already created several Servers that contain multiple cell chips...but also look for this chip to soon be in many electronics that we use today...sony has plans to use the chip for TV's, entertainment systems, etc...and if you are wondering they will reduce the spu's depending on the item...

now on to this argument...this guy complained about the ps1...the ps2...and it is expected of him to complain about the ps3...he has been complaining about the ps3 long before sony released the development kits to the devs...he did not like what he seen on paper...he is a pc developer and he needs to stay there...

has any one notice that the only people that complain are those who develop a game on the 360 first and then port over to the ps3...you have to ask yourself...would he still be complaining if he developed on the ps3 first...and if he is not dealing with the ps3...why does he make the statements about all his problems with the system...

SuicideNinja @ Aug 27th 2007 12:03PM

I think the big problem with the PS3 is its architecture isn't in the best interests of the 3rd party developers. Obviously, multiplatform is the way to go for maximum return, and the PS3 is the least friendly to that plan because of the likely lesser dev tools and unfamiliar architecture. Aside from deadlines, those are probably the biggest contributions to the cruddy ports we've seen.

We'll see if starting development on the PS3 will be better for them, although I doubt it. Sony would be hard pressed to match the tools of the company that has been developing software and developing development software for nearly 2 decades. As someone who has used Visual Studio on multiple ocassions, it's obvious that Microsoft knows how to cater to developers, and help them be more productive with their time. For example: sure, Java is a capable language, but Visual C# is much easier to get what you want out of it coupled with Visual Studio .NET.