Former Harmonix developer shoots down PS3 tech in rant
by Andrew Yoon 
{ Oct 26th 2007 at 10:27AM }
In regards to Blu-ray, the developer criticized the lower read speeds of the medium. "Great for watching movies, but not so great for games. Getting data off the Blu-ray drive takes about twice as long as it does to get the same data off the 360's DVD drive. That translates into longer load times."
The challenges that developers face when coding for the PS3 have inevitably led to "sloppier" ports, where the PS3 versions of games on Xbox 360 run more sluggishly. Jason Booth postulates that "Getting equivalent performance out of the PS3 requires a lot of work unique to the platform, and in many cases, even with all these tricks, you still won't see equivalent performance. Thus, many PS3 games have simplified shaders and run at lower native resolutions than the 360 versions. On top of this, there is shrinking incentive to do this work; the PS3 isn't selling."
[Via NeoGAF]
[Update: Added "former" to description of employee.]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
finelicker @ Oct 26th 2007 10:34AM
If its so bad, then why do exclusive PS3 games look sooo damn good?
IMHO, PS3 exclusives look better than 360 exclusives.
But thats just my take, what the hell do I know? I'm just a naive consumer at the end of the day.
Jevanzz @ Oct 26th 2007 10:36AM
If that's true, how come Halo 3 runs at a measly 640p?
Kspraydad @ Oct 26th 2007 10:38AM
How does this guy even know?
It's ROCK BAND...I don't think they were pushing any graphical limits on ANY console were they?
Just me.. @ Oct 26th 2007 10:41AM
yeah kinda stupid to say you're doing a bad job.
Benjamizzle @ Oct 26th 2007 10:43AM
Both xbox and PS3 are great systems, the billbox has had its issues hardware wise along with DVD capacity (blue dragon on 3 discs anyone) the PS3 has its issues with slow uptake, lack of good games and the high price.
Pretty soon we will all know if PS3 fanboyage is a good thing Xmas will be the test.
Hello @ Oct 26th 2007 10:44AM
In the comments for this article: PS3 fanboys pretend they know more than developers.
Anghel @ Oct 26th 2007 10:46AM
It is like learning a new programing language for those guys. He is probably pissed because he is probably getting paid the same and not he is more stressed trying to learn the new tools. I guess that would suck for me too. But eventually they will learn it and really see the power of the PS3 like the exclusive titles are showing.
finelicker @ Oct 26th 2007 10:45AM
Oi, Benjamizzle, get off that fence, this website says ps3fanboy in the address. You'll follow the black behemoth like the rest of us. ;)
SlantSeven @ Oct 26th 2007 10:49AM
Well, there goes some more negative press for Sony and it doesn't surprise me at all. It's true I don't remember how RockBand would push the power of the PS3 and what graphically impressive games have Harmonix came out with beside GH1/2? I think this guy is way out to lunch because right now I am playing Heavenly Sword running at 720p and it looks amazing....and it's a first year title.
Don't worry fellow PS3 fans next year will be huge and it's not our fault we get lazy developers that make brutal ports on the PS3.
Naaiif @ Oct 26th 2007 10:52AM
OK then, so why does Gran Turismo 5, MGS4 and Killzone 2 look better than anything on any other console?
Stupid EA, they really have no idea.
wei @ Oct 26th 2007 10:53AM
I seriously doubt anybody criticizing this guy is qualified to do so. Seriously, I have high hopes for the PS3 as a platform, but the news gets bleaker and bleaker every day. In my eyes, I still haven't seen the killer app for PS3 that will actually get me around to buying my first game. For now, my PS3 is only good as a blu-ray player. I'd hate to see this platform fail, as a lot of us have hopes and money invested into it. But let's not delude ourselves. Sony hasn't proven this platform yet. And it certainly isn't the premiere platform for gaming.
Yes, and I know I'm going to get flamed for this. But there's no sense in defending something, especially since none of us have ever tried to develop a game for the PS3.
Frank @ Oct 26th 2007 10:59AM
Love how everyone calls them "lazy developers" because they complain. Let's use a real word example everyone can understand.
You drive to work every day, it takes 30 minutes.
Now your boss (PS3) tells you that you now have to drive 15 minutes, and take 2 buses(we'll use carpooling as the motivation). It costs you more money, and it takes you an hour to get to work.
Wouldn't you be complaining? Something you're used to doing with no problem every day, then they go and tell you to do it entirely different, it's much more difficult, and it costs more.
I almost feel bad for the vicious circle that Sony/Ps3 devs are in. PS3 won't tell well until they get the games, developers don't want to make games because the install base is low and it's so difficult to program on.
blindrocket @ Oct 26th 2007 11:00AM
It’s not like Rock Band and Guitar Hero are pumping out amazing top-of-the-line graphics or anything. When has Harmonix made a graphically intensive game?
Why is Blu-ray read speeds such a big deal, especially for a low graphic music intensive game? The Playstation 3 ships all units with a STANDARD Hard-Disk Drive. UTILIZE IT YOU LAZY DEVELOPERS. A HDD will be faster than any DVD drive.
If resolutions have to be lower than 360 games, why do many games look so amazing on the PS3? Why does Oblivion load and look better on the PS3 than the 360? Why couldn’t the 360 run Halo 3, the 360’s FLAGSHIP TITLE, at full 720p? It couldn’t handle it apparently and had to have the resolution dropped.
The Playstation 3 is amazing hardware and many developers have said it’s the best, but of course lazy developers wanting to make quick ports will be shedding bitter tears because they can’t hit the EASY BUTTON.
Kspraydad @ Oct 26th 2007 11:01AM
By the way...he is an EX Harmonix member...I wonder why.
TheSh0wstopper @ Oct 26th 2007 11:02AM
Thank God I own both...
TheSh0wstopper
H-V-H @ Oct 26th 2007 11:09AM
According to wikipedia :
RSX - Maximum pixel fillrate: 4.4 GigaPixel per second (8 ROPs * 550 MHz)
Xenos - Maximum pixel fillrate: 4 Gigapixel per second (8 ROPs x 500 MHz)
phillip @ Oct 26th 2007 1:40PM
just another reason to get gh3 :)
rawd @ Oct 26th 2007 11:14AM
Harmonix BS fillrate: 436 turds per second
GL @ Oct 26th 2007 11:14AM
@6, Hello.
Maybe next you should learn about Jason. He's an amateur developer more interested in music and start-ups. He's just recently taken up programing. Sounds like the typical amateur that is clearly over his head and then just rants about it. :(
@11, wei,
You need to look around. Maybe you'll find some videos on UT3, R&C, Uncharted.
andiputra7 @ Oct 26th 2007 11:17AM
His comment about PS3 need a specific coding technique which is hard to master(or even learn) is understandable. But the part where he is saying that PS3 is worse than 360 is just intolerable. I mean, in term of raw power from the specs that PS3 have, it is more advanced than 360. Maybe not in term of graphic(they are roughly the same), but in term of Cell processor to produce a better AI, better physics, and better GAMEPLAY.
Ithilis @ Oct 26th 2007 11:17AM
To Blindrocket -
The reason Halo runs at 720p (actually, it runs lower, but anyways..) is because the game engine is an out-dated piece of trash. Rather than make a new engine, Bungie merely updated the Halo 2 engine to use in Halo 3. Now THAT'S what I call a lazy developer. The end result was an engine that wasn't able to handle all of the bloom effects and HDR lighting that they tossed in to hide their underwhelming polygon counts.
Bottom line: Halo 3 may be the flagship title in sales and online activity, but it is FAR from the flagship title in graphical prowess.
Gears of War and Bioshock, however, look absolutely gorgeous running in 1080p. Those are both fantastic examples of what the 360 can do, graphically.
As for Oblivion, it runs better on the PS3 due to the guaranteed inclusion of a hard drive. The developers had to cache into memory more on the 360 because of the stupid Core SKU.
Now, to counter your argument, why didn't Heavenly Sword run at 1080p? What about Virtua Fighter 5, which runs at 720p on the PS3, but will support 1080p on the 360?
I'm gonna get totally flamed and hated-on for this post, but I really don't care. Yes, I own a 360, but I also own a PS3. And I have been let-down enough by my PS3s performance to start believing what all of the developers are saying about it. It's a great piece of hardware, guys, I just don't think it's one that properly optimized for gaming.
GL @ Oct 26th 2007 11:18AM
blindrocket,
Rock Band and Guitar Hero were his only projects. So, you're right. Not the top end of graphics. And he clearly didn't know about other project going on. This is why he has put his foot in his mouth by talking about fill-rates, disc speeds (forgetting about the HDD), and the 360's inability to do full 720p games recently (Halo 3).
This is what happens when you have amateur devs that only do things one way and aren't unable to think out of the box.
Pete @ Oct 26th 2007 11:18AM
H-V-H: That is a theoretical maximum. In practice, both would be much lower.
Let's put it this way. A 720p screen is 1280x720 pixels. That is 921600 pixels.
If these chips were really capable of 4,000,000,000 pixels per second on a complex scene, they would be spitting out 4,000,000,000pixels per second / 921600 pixels per screen = 4340 frames per second.
Theoretical maximums really mean absolutely nothing. Maybe the Xenos has a better scheduler that enables better efficiency in the chip. Maybe there is some limiting bottleneck in the RSX.
wei @ Oct 26th 2007 11:27AM
@17: Yes, Uncharted and UT3 look good. I don't have an interest in R&C.. for some reason, that series' appeal didn't catch on with me. I had UYA for PS2 and I didn't enjoy it. But that's just me. From a personal standpoint, there are still no titles worth owning on PS3. Uncharted definitely looks like it could be a contender to finally break into my wallet. But I don't like throwing around my money on games I won't play through. I just don't have the time anymore.
andiputra7 @ Oct 26th 2007 11:28AM
@Ithilis
I don't really mind you compare 360 available games now with what PS3 has to offer now. But is the sole reason you buy a PS3 only for the graphic?! I'm not. I buy it for the great exclusives that are already in(Ratchet and Clank, Folklore(i like it despite the review), and Heavenly Sword(play it for the 3rd time now) and for those great exclusives that about to come(Uncharted, MGS4, LBP, WKS, FF13, GoW 3, SoTC sequel, etc).
Ratchet and Clank run at 1080p with those gorgeous environment(city, jungle, u name it), maybe 5 times the size of Gears or Bioshock small environment(mostly in rooms, or caves, or buildings, etc). I don't know why Heavenly Sword did not run on 1080p, maybe the developers just don't feel confident enough they could do it. But MGS4 run at 1080p 60fps(if i'm not mistaken) with a very smooth framerate-according to my friend who try at E for All.
So I don't see why PS3 is weaker than 360 or the other way around for that matter. But I buy PS3 as they promise me with the great exclusives they have in store. NOT THE BLOODY GRAPHIC!!! If I bought PS3 for the graphic, I wouldn't have bought PS2 last gen, I would have bought the failed XBOX1.
Dylan @ Oct 26th 2007 11:28AM
Hmm... thats always been a Playstation complaint. I remember developers complained about the Playstation 2. Thing is, the Playstation family has never been set up like a PC, so they are harder to program for, if you are used to PC's. But Ratchet and Clank looks great. I think users that are experienced with older Playstation's have an advantage. But those just starting have more work to do. Gabe Newell and this guy must be more used to PC's, so they prefer the 360.
I haven't gotten any of the new consoles yet, and I have no idea how to program, though. Maybe the PS3 has some issues. But I like the exclusives that are coming for it. I guess I just care about the games. I don't really like Sony. But they have Insomniac and Level 5, so I'll be getting one.
H-V-H @ Oct 26th 2007 11:28AM
Pete :
I'll take your word for it cause i don't know a damn thing about pixels and all that junk.
RedRose @ Oct 26th 2007 11:33AM
erm..sorry for rocking the boat here guys and dolls, but erm..how about a good that is just fun to play? 8 bit and 16bit days were fun werent they? Instead of focussing on creating imitations of life and making our eyes bleed with bloom and shaders, etc; hows about a really good original game. I'd like one person on here to name me one that has come out for any of the consoles this Gen. lets face it, developers are losing ideas and we are losing out, full stop.
hovan316 @ Oct 26th 2007 12:21PM
Can someone say LAZY!!!!
Ohh please, look at Ratchet and Clank, Heavenly Sword, Uncharted, MSG4, Killzone 2, Dark Sector, FF and GT5
All graphics to drool over...
All amazing graphics!
Bobsmith @ Oct 26th 2007 11:35AM
@20 IMHO it is impossible to separate out power and architecture. On paper, the PS3 has more "raw power" if you add up all the SPEs. However, it is next to impossible to actually use that power in any meaningful way. Thus, in practice, 360 has more usable power in real world scenarios. Certain functions well suited to the PS3 (e.g. Folding@home) are the one place where I think that we will see even a fraction of the PS3's processors used to their potential.
I am a part-time game developer, and I cannot even imagine how I would go about efficiently writing actual game code for the PS3's architecture. Basically, while the Cell processor is a very powerful thing, IMHO it is simply the wrong tool for the job...kind of like trying to go offroad racing in a Bugatti Veyron.
hammer_of_god @ Oct 26th 2007 11:35AM
One of the commenters may have made a good point about this guy's agenda. He left Harmonix in September to join another company that's building "social entertainment destinations for you and your friends."
Could he be trying to torpedo the PS3 in fear of Home putting him out of a job?
GL @ Oct 26th 2007 11:36AM
Ithilis,
Why do you post misinformation? You know damn well that Gears has 720p/1080i support. And any 1080p is scaled up based on ones TV. This is the same as some PS3 games.
Stop pretending that Gears runs natively at 1080p.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gears_of_War
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/g/gearsofwar/
andiputra7 @ Oct 26th 2007 11:37AM
@RedRose
Little Big Planet? I think it's pretty original.
Or maybe Everyday Shooter? I think it's pretty original as well
Ithilis @ Oct 26th 2007 11:37AM
To Andiputra7 -
Oh, I didn't buy it for the graphics, I bought it for Blu-Ray, MGS4, FFXIII and anything made by Team Ico.
But I was responding to a claim about the 360's graphical prowess, so I tried to keep my argument focused on that alone..
leiwei @ Oct 26th 2007 11:39AM
To the people talking about Halo's graphics. Do recall that when people were talking about KZ2's graphics, the Halo 3 defenders argued back saying "these screens are just the multiplayer screens, Bungie had to cut back the detail for online. The single player campaign will look much better."
That game got too overhyped. And there're some people on gamefaqs saying R&C was as hyped as Halo 3. I sure don't see any commercials of it or hundreds of threads about it on Digg.
Khamikazi @ Oct 26th 2007 11:43AM
I really dont understand why people put all the blame on the developers stating they are lazy and/or lying about the issues the PS3 has. Alot of developers have stated the issue, some more loudly than others. They cannot help it that Sony decided to one up itself and make a machine that is actually harder than the PS2 as far as developing goes, which was harder than usual when it first came out. Sony says they are helping, but when games still come out that arent running 100% right, one has to wonder how much Sony is really trying.
I also understand about the BluRay issue on reading speeds. While its totally worthwhile stating "well put info on the HD, its there for a reason", thats not exactly helping the problem neither. The games I own/played that do still take time to load, it just cuts it down from the absurd time it would have taken. While you can change out hard drives easily and they are cheaper than a 360 hard drive, I dont want to buy more than one just to be able to load games quicker.
I feel really let down by the PS3 thus far. Multiplatform games always get bought on my X360 and the exclusive titles the PS3 does have, most arent worth buying. BluRay was supposed to allow for epic gameplay but instead I got a beautiful game called Heavenly Sword that was the shortest game I've ever played. If MGS4 and FFXII somehow end up going multiplatform, I officially will feel like I only bought a BluRay player that can play games sometimes. That makes me a sad panda.
russ99 @ Oct 26th 2007 11:53AM
People are missing the point of this subject...
The developer is talking about porting from 360. Funny how the developers that are developing exclusively or concurrently aren't having these problems.
Also, they're probably using some kind of middleware in the porting process, so they're not really coding directly for the PS3 anyway.
Goes to show that porting from 360 is bad for both gamers and coders. The only thing it's good for is the game companies who keep labor costs down.
Also, that snarky comment at the end about user base makes the whole quote sound out of spite.
GL @ Oct 26th 2007 11:53AM
"Now, to counter your argument, why didn't Heavenly Sword run at 1080p? What about Virtua Fighter 5, which runs at 720p on the PS3, but will support 1080p on the 360?"
@Ithilis,
You're all over the place aren't you. One sentence you are bring up Gears good points. But fail to mention the tearing and missing texture models. Then, you ask about HS but forget about long draw distances and high-level texture in that game.
Then, you bring up VF5. Did you know the Japanese PS3 version supported 1080i/1080p upscaled -- but left it out for the US version. And considering any lack of optimization ya think that maybe a Feb 2007 PS3 game might not perform as well as one that has come out later? Just wait for VF6. Want native 1080/60p now. Then, check out Ninja Gaiden Sigma for the PS3.
So, stop trying to blame the PS3 hardware. It depends on the game type and developer's expertise as well.
Darren Tilley @ Oct 26th 2007 11:53AM
That guy is a 3D artist who just has only recently just taken up programming.
He is an authority on this subject how?
The PS3's GPU is always gonna come off worse when compared to the GPU of the 360. No-one has ever denied that. The PS3 is designed so that the Cell can work as a suplimentary graphics card, offloading many of the taxing tasks that would usually bottleneck a GPU. PS3 ports are always gonna come out worse when they are coded in the simplest manner (sending everything to the GPU).
Not saying that Sony didn't make a mistake by taking this approach, only time will tell that, but his post is full of half-truths.
wei @ Oct 26th 2007 11:54AM
@34: I completely agree with you and I'm in the same boat. The only game I wanted for PS3 was Heavenly Sword, but I can't justify playing $60 for such a short game. It's funny how fanboys who only own the PS3 defend the system so rabidly, but those who have multiple platforms have a completely different perspective. I own all three platforms. Each of them has their flaws, but the PS3 is the weakest by far. Seriously.
I really hope things get better, bc right now it looks like GT5, MGS4,and FF13 are the only hopes for the platform. At least one of them is guaranteed to be an exclusive.
Anwa123 @ Oct 26th 2007 12:02PM
These developers need to see that, when properly utilized, the ps3 will be a fighting force of a machine. First year graphics already look amazing, unlike 360's first year. Its always true that there will be problems come the first few years of a consoles' life (as can be seen with every console, not just ps3). With time and patience comes the payoff; these guys just want a quick payday.
Darren Tilley @ Oct 26th 2007 12:07PM
Oh and just for your guys information:
He is no longer at Harmonix, he founded Conduit Labs who are working on "building cool social entertainment destinations for you and your friends"
Sound familiar? Do you think this guy might have an agenda?
Sim and Sim @ Oct 26th 2007 12:12PM
I wonder how much Microsoft Payed him....
H2Os @ Oct 26th 2007 12:11PM
I give this former Harmonix employee a 10.5 Curics
eurotransient @ Oct 26th 2007 12:13PM
Oh my! What will Sony Defense Force have to say about this???
RazielDune @ Oct 26th 2007 12:23PM
lol Former Emyployee if that has proved anything you leave one comapany you can bad mouth or praise anything. *eyes nintendo Execes, Eat Sleep Play David Jaffe*
SlantSeven @ Oct 26th 2007 12:27PM
I understand that I am not a developer but let me justify my "lazy developer" point. The PS3 has plenty of tool-kits that Sony has introduced to them to build games from the ground up (not too sure if it helps with ports though) because all of them have been complaining that it's too tough to program for. Even now you still get developers complaining after every game they make.
@Frank - I do agree with some of your comments and you make some good points when you compare this to a confusing work environment.
"Now your boss (PS3) tells you that you now have to drive 15 minutes, and take 2 buses(we'll use carpooling as the motivation). It costs you more money, and it takes you an hour to get to work."
True it does cost some extra money and time to make a PS3 game but this is new technology. I currently work in the IT field and if I am not up to speed on new tech and don't want to learn it I won't have a job and will be lazy for not doing so. The videogame industry is always changing and developers can't expect to be using the same technology and engines over and over again. It's their job to create new engine and ideas to port over games. I think they are getting a little too lazy and want things to be easier when making a game and I just don't see the challenge in that.
Just my thoughts...
AIR_Irish @ Oct 26th 2007 12:29PM
this guy is completely off his rocker! if these are his ture feelings then he is completely biased. the facts that he is stating are completelty untrue and totally made up out of rage. and to the souce of his rage is, i have no cule. its probably some personal problem of his. but anyway i hope this is just some crazy worker, and maybe he will get a pay cut due to this bad publicity. i know that harmonix doesnt feel how he feels, again ITS JUST SOME PERSONAL PROBLEM OF HIS!
organic_shadow @ Oct 26th 2007 12:29PM
Just because they are developers doesn't mean they automatically have 100% fool-proof knowledge about anything game related, nor do they know/understand/comprehend 100% of the internal workings of any given platform, as devs are still freaking learning about PS2 after 7 years.
Furthermore, why is he complaining about stuff that other devs do not, or that other devs are giving completely opposite comments about? We go through this same crap EVERY TIME a developers bashes PS3. Every time a developers praises something nobody says anything and the article is quickly buried by "Poor PS3 Sales" articles shortly after.
Could it be possible that.... *GASP* a developer doesn't know as much as he thinks he does? And that another developer could possibly know more? Why that's preposterous! The idea of a developer being smarter, more understanding, and overall more capable of wrapping his head around a certain piece of technology than another...
I'm a web developer. If I say something about websites and browsers does that make it so? Really? It DOES? Oh, okay then here's my statement that should be officially taken as fact: Websites are made of cheerios that are painted individually and then glued together with the sticky tears of canadian kittens, thus the reason why we charge so much to make flash websites, because getting cheerios to animate is a lot harder. The cheerios crumble, and you need to get the customer on a service agreement contract to ensure that you can get paid each month to replace all the cheerios that gabe newell eats.
Carl @ Oct 27th 2007 5:43PM
Well, its a port from the 360....im not surprised at developers complaining again. You know...I just noticed that the only ones complaining are the ones that are trying to port a game from 360 to PS3. While other developers did most of there work to PS3 first before they ported it on 360 never complained. And the game looks better too. A great example of this is . And other Multiplatform games like COD4 are also better than there 360 counterparts.