John Carmack says Blu-ray offers better graphics
by Andrew Yoon 
{ Aug 1st 2008 at 1:15PM }
Right now, the PS3 version of id's upcoming shooter, Rage, will offer superior graphics performance on PS3 than Xbox 360. Not because of sheer horsepower, but because of storage. The game is shaping up to be a three disc game, a costly proposition due to Microsoft's licensing fees. Textures would need to be compressed "to fit the game's assets on two DVDs."
Microsoft may have to rescind any fees for additional discs, as it's becoming evident that more developers will require more space in the future. For example, how much compression will Square Enix use for the 360 version of Final Fantasy XIII if making multi-disc games becomes too costly? In the future, we're likely to see more games take advantage of the sheer space offered by Blu-ray disc.
[Via Joystiq; Thanks, stoo!]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
-Jad- @ Aug 1st 2008 1:20PM
How sad isn't... Poor xbox360 :( j/k
Rob @ Aug 1st 2008 1:21PM
lawl!
Danny F. @ Aug 1st 2008 1:23PM
PS3's self-respect up +2 point X-D
Lars @ Aug 1st 2008 1:24PM
That looks nuts.
And the guy/thing at the end reminded me of someone.
"Baby! Baby! Ruth!"
"ugh, you smell like phys ed!"
debaser @ Aug 1st 2008 1:41PM
CHUNK!!!!!! hahaha
nice one!
SuperGayParade @ Aug 1st 2008 1:45PM
not CHUNK, his name is SLOTH!
"heyyyyy youuuuuu guyyyyyys~!"
frankym @ Aug 1st 2008 1:26PM
This is hilarious. 3 discs!! LOL!!!
This game looks absolutely STUNNING!!!
Also notice that we are now beginning to see the difference between the consoles in terms of power...games look so different now when compared to launch.
Tristan @ Aug 1st 2008 4:19PM
3 Discs. Video Compression as well, thats quite intense?
Phantom @ Aug 1st 2008 1:27PM
LOL , I imagine that it's going to be very hard to re-coup the cost of porting FFXIII the the game using only 360 sales , luckily there is still a PS3 version that will easily profit enough for both , escpecially in Japan .
I bet MS is going to be in the red (financial) when FFXIII launches , because they will have to pay for the extra disc's , then they'll have to pay for all of the 360's that are going to break because of the game , then , when the PS3 version is far superiour , and how much better looking versus will be , people will be able to see the difference .
I can see MS trick with FFXIII backfiring ..... ALOT .
LV426 @ Aug 1st 2008 7:29PM
How would they have to swallow the price of the discs? It's all in licensing according to the article, which means "you pay me for honor."
If they have to lose that, they didnt lose anything they have to recoup. They lost pure profit.
Though they will begin to need to rethink the per disc thing, though.
eugene @ Aug 1st 2008 7:27PM
Don't forget about the PS3's cancer curing properties and how it emits a field that helps crops grow faster with greater yields.
Dwag @ Aug 2nd 2008 12:00PM
LOL your fanboyism is spectacular. I'm amazed at your blinded fanboyism and loyality to a console that doesn't care about you, just your money but hey there is no point saying this cause you'll always be a fanboy with stupid logic and plus it is a fanboy site.
Ithilis @ Aug 1st 2008 1:27PM
Ouch. But if you read the entire interview here:
http://kotaku.com/5031985/rage-and-ids-lovehate-relationship-with-the-ps3
His stance on the PS3 overall is pretty negative. He claims that the PS3's architecture is inferior to the 360, and the only reason why it would look better on the PS3 is due to the texture compression needed to fit the game on multiple discs. He seems to think that the only thing preventing the 360 from being the best is the disc medium.
Either way, it's a win for the PS3 I guess. But Carmack is probably one of the most, if not the most, gifted developers to date. His words sting a little.
dabamf @ Aug 1st 2008 1:38PM
http://playstation.joystiq.com/2007/11/14/naughty-dog-itching-to-work-on-next-game-and-get-the-most-out-o/
Yeah, he still is pretty negative on the PS3. But I think considering Naughty Dog's success on the PS3 (and desire to harness more power from the PS3 hardware), it's important to take his words with a grain of salt.
Devin @ Aug 1st 2008 1:39PM
What about the new Developer SDK that Sony unveiled at last year's GDC? Has it helped to improve his stance on the issue?
brampf @ Aug 1st 2008 1:50PM
His main issue seems to be that the architecture doesn't conform to what software developers in the games industry at least are used to.
I guess time will tell if Sony haschosen to push hardware in the right direction or the wrong direction.
nahworry @ Aug 1st 2008 3:35PM
What's so gifted about Carmack, as you say? id are releasing nothing but the same generic shooter all those years (Rage doesn't seem to be any different), and if he thinks the PS3 architecture is actually inferior (obviously because he can't get his developers up to the task), he is just another Gabe Newell, some developer that's feeding from the past.
iamkid @ Aug 1st 2008 3:43PM
then that dude is a fail if he thinks down upon ps3
iamkid @ Aug 1st 2008 3:42PM
then that dude is a fail if he thinks down upon ps3
frankym @ Aug 1st 2008 3:51PM
Thanks for this info....very good read
dabamf @ Aug 1st 2008 1:28PM
The comments on the Joystiq article are pretty funny. It's pretty much a 50/50 split. Half the people are pissed at Microsoft for imposing ridiculous constraints on third party devs. The other half say the following:
"Doom 3 sucked...I don't care about games made by Id!"
I think the MSFanboys are in for a rude awakening. There are guaranteed to be more developers griping about this in the future.
Vii @ Aug 1st 2008 1:30PM
So when is the Xbox360 port of MGS4 coming out? ;)
Seriously, gotta have some respect for Carmack. At least when he belittles the 360 he has concrete evidence to back it up. Unlike another developer that I know.
*cough*Gabe Newell*cough*
Makoto99 @ Aug 1st 2008 1:33PM
"In the future, we're likely to see more games take advantage of the sheer space offered by Blu-ray disc."
Uh... wow, really? That's a mighty bold prediction, gee.
Nerdkiller @ Aug 1st 2008 1:38PM
Well seeing what all the big name devs have been saying that this, the seventh generation of videogaming, will be lasting approximatly another 7 to 8 years, the devs will need that extra amount of space on the BD discs as their future games become more and more complex. I'd say within the next 2 to 3 years we'll be seeing more dev's backing PS3 exclusivity, all because the 360's disc's don't have enough space.
jojo29 @ Aug 1st 2008 1:47PM
But then again, MS will release yet another "premium packaged" xbox 360 that has a blu ray drive built in, thus alienating their fanbase yet again or by letting developers use the HDD for added space because i believe MS is now allowing the developers to use the HDD to download stuff in right?
HanzoTheRazor @ Aug 2nd 2008 4:11AM
@jojo29, I would have too say M$ will never bring BD's to the 360, Xbox 3 maybe, but never the 360 as this would mean a big win for SONY. They would have to pay them royalties for a built in BD player too. And with M$ new Xbox that they will release early, it will find it very tough. It will be harder to program too, more expensive and a big risk for developers over the PS3 then, as the PS3 will be in super drive and have huge support at that stage. One thing is for sure though, it is a very interesting time to be a gamer!
Jerses @ Aug 1st 2008 2:09PM
i dont know... but how much does it cost to make a bluray and a dvd? The fee MS ask is it too much considering the cost of a bluray and the fee that ps3 ask? Anyway.. M$ did the mistake of adding just a regular DVD knowing better graphics means lots of Disc space. Now that devs have the power and the tools to make really good looking games... they are running out of space for textures,sounds,etc.
ffxiii irony @ Aug 1st 2008 2:12PM
to me the funniest thing about the FFXII-360 hulla-ba-loo is that most 360 owners couldn't care less about FF - they dont even know what it is. If it's not madden / halo / other shooter then they're indifferent
batmanhill6157 @ Aug 1st 2008 2:16PM
hahaha high five to everyone who made the Sloth reference
SDkngsht @ Aug 1st 2008 2:43PM
wait...didn't someone say that blu-ray was also good for gaming purposes? and i think everyone said they were stupid and crazy. oh yeah...Sony said that bluray would also play a part in gaming.
how dumb of them. lol. i can just see the "told you so" looks on their faces. they're probably not sweating FF going to the 360 because it may make the superior format even more of an obvious advantage for the PS3.
Ghaleon @ Aug 1st 2008 2:28PM
I'm sure it will be a huge difference :P Big deal if the texture quality is slightly compressed more on one console.
MartyK2500 @ Aug 1st 2008 2:31PM
i hope this is only the beginning...squeenix MUST be backfired on.Either having them pay extra royalty for a 5 disc ff13 or by having them compress the game in uglyer graphs.I have more than enough money to buy me a 360 so my fanboyism isnt based on financial issues...i also got a wii.just gotta hate m$...
Mark @ Aug 1st 2008 2:34PM
This generation has barely begun, and the 360 is running out of steam.
Lets hope not too many other games based on Rage don't end up gimped on 360..
HHUK @ Aug 1st 2008 2:37PM
It's all pointing towards digital distribution for games.
The thing is, developers have already fit brilliant, high quality games on 1 DVD. Carmack is an idiot, the only time developers ever make use of BluRay's extra space is because they can't be bothered to compress their files, which leaving them uncompressed has no gain as the BluRay drive reads slower than a DVD drive.
Plus, id suck for optimisation.
MartyK2500 @ Aug 1st 2008 2:49PM
the only reply left for someone that doesnt like the blu...''everything is going via digital distribution''
I would have to say no to that.people that are materialist like me really appreciate having hard copys to add to their collection.My nes/snes/etc collection would be obsolete without my 300+ cartridges...
LV426 @ Aug 6th 2008 8:40AM
Digital distribution isnt comming? *insane laughter* Im sorry, I had to laugh... because as a PC gamer, I can tell you it's not just comming, it's here. Hell, if you bought ANY game made by Valve in the past several years on your PC, you didnt need the discs besides maybe to install STEAM (assuming you didnt just download it too). You just put in the CD-Key and presto! You could download it without ever putting in the disc... ever.
This was the turning point, and others have followed their example. Look, when you have to wait in line to get Rage on any console, and Im playing because EA let me buy and download it directly from them, Ill be laughing.
The future, gentlemen, is here. Assimilation is inevitable.
HHUK @ Aug 1st 2008 5:18PM
I'll try make sense of your crude English. I never said I disliked BluRay, it's just the natural evolution. The success of the Steam and Stardock (aswell as XBox Live and PS Network) are proof that digital distribution is the next evolution. It's just our current gen systems haven't got enough storage for a decent game collection.
Actually, after reading seeing your previous posts, there's no need for me to carry on writing a reply, you're a fanboy. End.
grognard66 @ Aug 1st 2008 3:24PM
Pretty misleading headline. What Carmack actually said was that because MS charges their licensing fee per disc, rather than per title, he would have to compress the files to 2 DVD's to get the profit margins they desire. It's smart on his part to leverage his position to pressure MS to modify their licensing stance, but this in no way means Blu-Ray results in better graphics.
Now that MS allows OPTIONAL HD installs, Carmack can just install data onto the HD thus mitigating the DVD space issue entirely (like PC's do with install/play discs). It's not like us PS3 owners don't have MANDATORY installs due to the slow Blu-Ray spin speeds, which would make us hypocrites for bashing a 360 game with a HD install...
Fullmetalcrusade @ Aug 6th 2008 8:39AM
Here's the thing though, M$ doesn't allow mandatory installs for any 360 game. Because they(at least at one point) sold 360s that didn't come with HDD, they are obligated to assume they have customers who have yet, or refuse to buy an HDD for the system. Can't really blame those that don't, the price to get an HDD separate is ludicrous. Anyway, because of that, no game that releases on the 360 is allowed to REQUIRE HDD installs, it's only allowed as an option. GTA and DMC4 could still be played to their fullest without the HDD install. Sony however doesn't have that stipulation, because every PS3 was shipped with a HDD, and until games require more than a 20gb install(which won't be happening this gen) they won't have to worry about making such a rule. MS jumped the gun in hopes of winning the console race, and right now they are, but it seems that as devs push the limit more and more, they see how much more effort they have to put into compressing a game for 360. Nothing wrong with multidisc games...until it starts costing devs more money. These next few years will be interesting indeed as far as PS3 and 360 are concerned.
foe1one @ Aug 1st 2008 8:01PM
No Carmack can't just make part of the game installable to compensate, because not all Xbox models have hard drives. They just launched another SKU last year with no hard drive in order to wrangle in some more coin from elcheapo gamers with no foresight. Lest we forget the whole butt hurt uproar about Xbox owners not being able to play Burnout Paradise online because of not having a hard drive. So no games can be made that NEED installable data for the game to work, because that would just alienate a large portion of their install base.
Vohaul79 @ Aug 1st 2008 3:31PM
GTA4's main dude (cant remember his name) also complained about the lack of disc space on the 360. IMO its the reason we got "beautiful" block hands...PS3/BR would have been a much better fit for GTA4...
I felt the whole time playing it I was getting the shaft from having to make it identical to the one disc version the MS camp had...
Hopefully FF13 doesn't take the same hit...I don't care that they got it, only if it degrades the quality of the PS3 version in an attempt to keep both systems equal...
Andrew @ Aug 2nd 2008 7:36PM
Are you trying to say that because of the approximate 8GB size of a dual-layer DVD, characters in GTA IV were restricted to fewer polygons and thus blocky hands?
Developing across both consoles has their advantages and disadvantages - HOWEVER with something as complex as differing optical mediums (with relation to both storage space and read times) it is hard to say a clear "winner" between the 360 and the PS3.
They are just different.
justice @ Aug 1st 2008 3:36PM
i b3lieve!
omoshiroi my friends...
i'll have to say that MS is in trouble..
but hey got money... lots of it!
dont forget
jigzat @ Aug 1st 2008 3:39PM
I don't think digital distribution is the future for the whole industry, considering the size of PS3 games we would need a lot of storage and pretty damm good internet conection.
Ithilis @ Aug 1st 2008 4:49PM
To NahWorry: I'll be the first to admit that id hasn't produced a new, exciting game since Quake 2, but that's no fault of Carmack's, per se. He develops the technologies used in their games, but does not design the games themselves. As the CEO of id Software, I'm sure he has a final say on each game's design, but he's no designer.
Carmack has been responsible for some of the greatest technological advancements in gaming, and continues to innovate to this day. His contributions pioneered most of the techniques used in game development today. Without him, we'd never have Half-Life, Call of Duty, Unreal, etc.
I would trust his opinion on which games were fun to play, but I sure listen when he talks about the hardware and technology behind them.
jojo29 @ Aug 6th 2008 8:40AM
"It's all pointing towards digital distribution for games."
Yeah, so developers/publishers can lose even more money on pirated copies of videogames...DD is not gonna happen for awhile buddy, probably by the time im 50ish...Also, like a poster said, people love having their collections, i HATE having my movies on a harddrive, imagine if you have to do a HD wipe, which most pc gamers go through pretty consistantly, so to re-DL all those movies would be such a hassle.
"The thing is, developers have already fit brilliant, high quality games on 1 DVD. Carmack is an idiot, the only time developers ever make use of BluRay's extra space is because they can't be bothered to compress their files, which leaving them uncompressed has no gain as the BluRay drive reads slower than a DVD drive. "
I agree, some beautiful games have been fit on 1 DVD9, but IMAGINE how much BETTER that game would have been without HAVING to COMPRESS it in the first place which no matter how good a compression technique there is, compression ALWAYS = reduced quality, thus in essence, Blu Ray DOES bring IMPROVED graphics by NOT having to COMPRESS as much if at all the game. Think of it like a painting. You want to paint your masterpiece, and on one hand Microsoft is offering you a standard 8"x11" to fit your grand masterpiece in, whereas sony is offering a a 18"x24" canvas, guess which one is gonna look better of the same image....
"Plus, id suck for optimisation."
yeah, Id, a game company who pretty much put the FPS on the map Wolfenstein, Doom.....
Nugent @ Aug 1st 2008 5:06PM
Carmack's not really complaining about lack of space, he's complaining about the license fees for multiple DVD games that MS charges. If this is a trend, MS can drop or reduce their fees to keep up.
monkeywithnoeyes @ Aug 1st 2008 6:02PM
yeah funny how a ps3 fanboy site didnt actually mention the negative things that he said about the ps3.. strange that eh
Such desperation in the sony fanboys eyes..ofcourse you're going to think that it being on multiple discs means its going to be a worse game.. after all all those FF on the ps2 that required a disc swap were rubbish right? The fact is that blue ray isnt a benefit over multiple discs.. lets use mgs4 as an example.. you have a forced install.. you then have 5minute loading times between selected chapters in place of the 20seconds it would take to swap a disc. Hows that a benefit?
It will be interesting to see if this does hit the 360 on 3 discs or 1/2 ..because thats the only issue . And if it does come on one or two and STILL look better and perform better than the ps3 version i will be the first in line to laugh
MartyK2500 @ Aug 1st 2008 8:18PM
Yeah funny how a x360fanboy site neglected to post this news yet...been out first thing on joystiq and ps3fanboy.by reading a part of your post i noticed you never had a FF on ps2.None of them required a disc swap.I think you are the desperate one by trying to debate this with empty arguments...
foe1one @ Aug 1st 2008 8:11PM
You see the little "via Joystiq" link there? (a site which arguably has a 360 bias) They didn't mention the negative stuff either, so you aren't ringing any bells, buddy.