PSN terms say Sony can sell your content without reimbursement
by Andrew Yoon 
{ Oct 17th 2008 at 7:30AM }
For example, Sony could show off your latest LittleBigPlanet level in a commercial they air. Or, they may show off your amazing drunken SingStar vid in a magazine ad. Maybe they'll make money off ads that run in your private apartment in Home. There are a lot of possibilties.
However, there is one fear, as pointed out by I have the Princess. Could Sony also redistribute user-generated levels from LittleBigPlanet as paid DLC? If so, there's no entitlement for the creators to gain a single penny off of those purchases. We doubt something this drastic will happen. Instead, we still believe LBP creators might, just might, have a chance to get rich off the game.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Kluv_16 @ Oct 17th 2008 7:37AM
I don't think this is too bad. I mean, i'd love whatever i created to be publicized, because it says they ask you before they do it. they don't just go out and use whatever they want, they get permission. and if you're cool with it, then hell yeah!
It's not like you were gonna make money off singstar in the first place.
I prefer fame>fortune.
nakedatthecomp @ Oct 17th 2008 8:44AM
I dunno man, I'm pretty sure I'd take fortune over fame haha. I also think fame would come with said fortune anyways.
Eric E @ Oct 17th 2008 3:52PM
You wouldn't be making that much money, plus if it was real game development software it would cost a lot more than $60.
And if you make a great level(s) and get popular and they show them off, you could get a job/grant something out of it.
Replica23 @ Oct 17th 2008 4:30PM
As long as they don't take credit for the creation they can do whatever they want, they do own the rights to the game.
Lavat @ Oct 17th 2008 7:38AM
If such were to happen to me...I would be quite flattered that they used a LBP level I created and used it in a commercial...It would be good enough payment...But maybe ads running in my Home space is a little to much...Then again...I did put up a Bioshock Ad wallpaper in my bedroom...So I kind of screwed myself there already...
Copland @ Oct 17th 2008 7:45AM
I don't mind them(Sony), putting user made LBP level on commercial ads for free (no money goes to user),
as long as PSN is for free (HOME and other Internet gaming).
It will be great if Sony could credit us on the bottom of screen or something though :)
BUT, I don't think its fair for Sony to sell DLC's which were made by users.(For example, stage made for LBP by users)
Laurens Holst @ Oct 17th 2008 11:15AM
It seems wrong that a service provider can claim my creative expressions, imagine if Flickr or your ISP have such clauses, hell would freeze over.
Actually, I wonder if it is even legal, I don’t think Dutch copyright laws permit authors to yield their rights…
However, the PSN network is a service that is offered to us for free, so Copland does have a point. We are using their service, it seems only fair that Sony asks something in return. Yet, still…
Laurens Holst @ Oct 17th 2008 11:19AM
“It seems wrong that a service provider can claim my creative expressions”
Wanted to add — it seems especially wrong if there is no choice in the service provider. Would Flickr have such terms, you could start using another photo site. Would your ISP have such terms, you could choose another ISP. However now that the Playstation Network suddenly gets these terms, there is really no choice other than to accept it, otherwise your €400-Playstation 3 and games would lose much of their value.
Eggy @ Oct 19th 2008 10:17AM
It's alittle different dude. You're not creating your own assets, you use those provided by Media Molecule.
Copland @ Oct 19th 2008 11:33AM
I know were using stuff that was made by Media Molecule, but if I remember right, I think the user can use their custom textures.
Rodz @ Oct 17th 2008 8:01AM
I don't mind if my LBP levels will be used in an AD. Actually, I'll enjoy it.
Anyway, I don't think anyone will create a level aiming to get rich selling it. Hell, we create levels because it's fun.
Carlosm88 @ Oct 17th 2008 8:07AM
Even if you agreed that SONY can use your content for whatever they want, they can't sell them, that would be downright stealing, and as a law student i can tell a pretty good case can be made against SONY if they ever do that. It just plain abuse...
P @ Oct 17th 2008 12:55PM
yup, and the terms dont give them permission to sell them either, so the title of the story is extremely misleading and inaccurate.
"You authorize and license SCEA a royalty free and perpetual right to use, distribute, copy, modify, display, and publish your User Material for any reason without any restrictions or payments to you or any third parties."
That doesnt say they can sell it, only your not entitled to payment for them using, distributing etc
The only outragous thing from this story is the false implication that Sony could sell our content for free in the headline. They can sell it for an agreed fee i guess, but they cant take it and charge, only freely distribute it (which is little more than what your doing in things like LBP).
jsled @ Oct 17th 2008 7:06PM
What do you think "[…] license SCEA a royalty free […] right to […] publish […] for any reason without any restrictions or payments" means, P? It most definitely means that SCEA has the option to sell the content. Whether they actually do or not, by accepting the agreement you are agreeing to give them a royalty-free license to do do whatever they want with that content, and you have no right to payment.
P @ Oct 17th 2008 8:16PM
Your implying that the term 'Publish' in some way means 'profit' or something to that extent?? Publish means to make available, to put into the public domain so people can access it, no more, no less.
The terms are what they are, and at no point does it specify they have the right to SELL or profit from these methods, only that what they've outlined they can legally do with it will not be profitable to the creator.
They've chosen there words carefully, because its a matter of law, not just randomly put together words. None of those words mean they have the users permission (by using the PSN your agreeing to them) to sell anything we make.
What they can do is things such as bundle them on DVDs or PSN Store, modify them, use them for display purposes etc etc, but at no point does it state they have a right to any form of profit, there is NO 'sell' in there, meaning they have no right to sell our content under this specific T&C rule.
Whether they ammend that, or add a new one soon to say they can buy content at fixed rate with the makers agreement, i dunno, but the terms used do not suggest they can sell it, only use it without seeking permission for $$ or free.
The whole thing is being wrongly interpreted, largely with the help of a silly headline saying they can do this, and people dont check (Frankly they shouldnt have to, not when a headline misleads them with something which is false!). The whole thing could be updated now but it makes little difference because people have already jumped to a conclusion based on this. I just dont understand how so many people can be stupid enough to misunderstand what can and cant be done. This goes for PS3Fanboy and whatever the princess site is saying which this story relates to, they're both wrong, at least in my understanding of what the T&C is asking, and without a term which means sell/sale/profit etc for what they can rightfully do, they simply cannot do it, and to do so would be stealing and therefor completely illegal.
Ayrkain @ Oct 17th 2008 8:21AM
Look, this is easy. If you're not a lawyer, don't attempt to interpret legalese. What's written is not entirely binding - rather it's the furthest they can extend their rights, just in case they have to argue about it later. Much like the bizarre language in the Chrome EULA, they have no intention of actually exercising anywhere near that degree of control, and probably couldn't get away with it if they tried.
The Aggie CEO @ Oct 17th 2008 8:37AM
so thats what the new terms were........
I wasnt about to click the link in my email and read thru all that.......
but damn.......
Odan @ Oct 17th 2008 8:53AM
Ah the problem Arykain , is that companys do try to use there EULA to the full power they try to give themselves.
How many times in history has someone tried to steal someone elses work to gain from it.
I doubt Sony will charge money for LBP levels that are used created, that would just kill the game off , and seriously cause a lot more damage to the system then anything else i could think of right now. However i wouldn't put it past them to not try it. I see this more as protection on there part myself as well. But again if i made some kick ass levels on LBP and later saw Sony pawning them off as there own work and charing 5 bucks for a it and a couple others. I'd be going to my lawyer to see what i could do about it.
Fathead5f @ Oct 17th 2008 8:47AM
which makes sense since sony already has to pay the developer to make the game now they'd have to pay millions more to publish stuff you do in a game? stupid that people are upset about this. if you're upset don't make levels or post them. simple as that.
jsled @ Oct 17th 2008 9:21AM
This seems pretty clear (from §12:) "To the extent permitted by law, You authorize and license SCEA a royalty free and perpetual right to use, distribute, copy, modify, display, and publish your User Material for any reason without any restrictions or payments to you or any third parties. You further agree that SCEA may sublicense its rights to any third party, including its affiliates and subsidiaries." where "User Material" is basically any content (including "game related material") that can "stream" through the PSN.
But, yeah, IANAL, TINLA.
decompiler @ Oct 17th 2008 9:29AM
but did you see this part?:
"SCEA reserves the right to monitor and record any online activity and communication throughout PSN and you give SCEA your express consent to monitor and record your activities."
putting 2 and 2 together to get 22: don't leave your playstation eye plugged in, or next they might be selling your "home videos", ifyouknowwhatimean! ;)
Gambit07 @ Oct 17th 2008 1:36PM
Wait, your telling me... bedroom+PSeye+GF=Oh shiat!
rgoff31 @ Oct 17th 2008 9:30AM
I think using someones singstar video would be worse than the LBP level idea. Your actually performing for a camera it's like some taking picture someone on the street and making a ton of money on it and not sharing it.
GGCAN @ Oct 17th 2008 12:07PM
For free online, I don't mind them doing this.
farfisa @ Oct 17th 2008 9:40AM
Apparently, it's also THEIR world--we just play in it! wtf?!!
Dartmerc @ Oct 17th 2008 9:42AM
Gee Andrew Loon - seems like you have been caught sourcing content from the very web page which you accused of copying PS3fanboy's content. Maybe you should be a little less up your own arse about how great you think you are....
IHTP (ihavetheprincess.wordpress.com) helps you out in your daily job, doesn't it?
Maybe now you should regret your previous comments... "why does everything on here seem exactly the same as ps3fanboy?" when really it is you who is getting content from IHTP.
Even if you don't publish this I still derive immense satisfaction from the knowledge that you will read this and feel like a supreme idiot.
Please recall tonight when you go to sleep my immense distaste and lack of respect for you.
Andrew Yoon @ Oct 17th 2008 9:46AM
?
Have no idea if this is meant to be a joke.
Dartmerc @ Oct 17th 2008 10:08AM
The best and only way I can explain this is with the absolute truth.
My (overprotective) girlfriend, who upon reading your previous less than constructive comment on my site and realising the irony, has for some reason posted this less than flattering comment.
To be honest, I have no idea why she has done this and I am not sure what she has hoped to achieve - I can only curse the comment system for deciding not to require email confirmation for the first time, on this comment.
I apologize on her behalf, and mine for allowing this scenario, and I feel very stupid at the moment.
I have nothing but respect for you Andrew and the other ps3fanboy posters, this certainly is the #1 source of PS3 news on the internet.
Hopefully soon I can move on from this groveling and get back to pimping my site in the comments :P
Mike @ Oct 17th 2008 10:03AM
Verbage like that in a TOS is very very customer unfriendly. I (personally) would be a little peeved if they used my LBP level in an ad - and I would make a public stink about it. A lot of money changes hands in advertising deals, and if my level earned Sony money, I'd be a little cranky about it.
If they flat out sold my level as DLC w/o comping me, I would be furious. Anyone can create a level in LBP. To create a GOOD level requires talent and time. If I use my talent and time to make a free level, hooray - the community wins. If Sony takes my talent and time, and sells them (either to gamers or advertising partners) then they're getting free money out of me - I'm not ok with that.
Now, in the end, I doubt they'd risk the negative PR by acting on this - but it's scary to think they COULD. It's scary to think they've left the door open for customer exploitation.
wem003 @ Oct 17th 2008 10:46AM
If you don't like and don't agree to the terms of service, don't submit.
If you want it done your way, buy the dev kit, build your own game and get it published on your terms.
Mike @ Oct 17th 2008 10:56AM
Let's pretend for a minute.
Let's pretend there's one manufacturer in the entire world of paper, both notebooks, and for printers.
Now let's pretend that that manufacturer has a similar TOS associated with buying their paper products. They could then sell any written work for whatever price they saw fit without ever compensating the author. It's not a matter of not liking the TOS - it's a matter of the TOS being rather unfair. I stand by my earlier statement - if they act on this in any way, they will see a huge negative backlash from the community.
wem003 @ Oct 17th 2008 11:12AM
I understand your point, and I agree to an extent.
What I am trying to say is that for all the people who are upset about the terms of service, they don't have to agree. They don't have to participate, and further if they want a creative outlet - there are other means where they can control the distribution and cash flow.
Because people are going to choose to use LBP to be their outlet, they have to accept the TOS that comes as part of using the tool set.
For what its worth, and I should have probably had more detail in my original post - I agree. If Sony uses your stuff, you should be compensated somehow.
But as owners of the license or however it will work between them and Media Molecule, I understand they can decide how it will work.
I'm starting to ramble. The point I am trying to make is that if people don't like the TOS, don't agree to it. I was also replying in general to the thread and not your comment specifically.
George Sears @ Oct 17th 2008 11:33AM
This is just legal language that protects Sony from any old joe coming to them with a lawsuit. All corporations with like circumstances will have a blanket clause very similar to this. It doesn't mean you WON'T EVER NEVER NEVER MAKE MONEY off your stuff. It just means that if you do, Sony is doing it without legal contract binding or restricting their decisions to do so, and to stop money-hungry psychos coming out of the woodwork to sue sue sue.
Lars @ Oct 17th 2008 1:15PM
I doubt Sony or Mm would ever allow that to happen. They're really stretching the imagination here.
leonus11 @ Oct 17th 2008 1:28PM
so let me get this straight....most of you guys could care less that a level you created gets showen on and AD or T.V. commercial and if sony makes money off of it you wouldn't care if you get a single PENNY for it? yup. LBP really is THE NEXT BIG THING. or should i say "SONY'S NEXT BIG SCAM"? yeah that suits it just fine.
rubAdub72 @ Oct 17th 2008 2:18PM
i remember being forced to sign a similar agreement over some characters i created for an internet company. At first i was pissed, but soon i've found out that it happens everywhere.
welcome to corporative world... :*
jsled @ Oct 17th 2008 7:07PM
Uh, being employed or contracted is *substantially* different than being a consumer of a video game.
rubAdub72 @ Oct 17th 2008 7:58PM
despite not being paid for the job, the differences aren't that great.
it gets down to the fact that you're creating content with characters and intellectual properties that doesn't belong to you.
Jacksons @ Oct 17th 2008 6:42PM
A big "No shit, Sherlock" for this article.
Carlos @ Oct 17th 2008 8:20PM
Did anyone read the part about their upgrades can break your hard drive and they are not liable?
Guess this means no more zero day upgrades for my BC 60GB
Ben @ Oct 17th 2008 9:30PM
Look, the PSN is a very volatile service that Sony provides to us completely free. Compare that to Microsoft's LIVE service where nothing is free and user-distributed content is hard to come by (comparatively).
Personally, I think they only put in that clause so that if they ever used content in whatever way (most likely for a commercial) they won't get into legal disagreements. Y'know, that's not to say they won't pay person A when they use their LBP level as DLC (it just means they aren't legally bound to coughing up).
All of that aside, they still do need your approval before they use your content so if you really find offense in spreading the love (of your creation and whatnot) you can simply refuse Sony the right to use it.
Wiizer @ Oct 17th 2008 9:45PM
I guess I shouldn't post my LBP theme here, then:
Little Big Planet PS3 Theme!
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=29fb9769b2aecdf6d2db6fb9a8902bda
Oops, I just did.
IHateBioshock @ Oct 19th 2008 10:22AM
As someone who made maps for the Unreal series for many years, it's nothing new... it's to cover their asses and I have no problems with that. I don't think we should be being paid if it's given away free, it shouldn't be about money it should be about creativity and love of the subject! (cont)
IHateBioshock @ Oct 19th 2008 10:22AM
As someone who made maps for the Unreal series for many years, it's nothing new... it's to cover their asses and I have no problems with that. I don't think we should be being paid if it's given away free (cont)...
Tom @ Oct 19th 2008 10:22AM
It's been updated:
You may have the opportunity to post, stream or transmit pictures, photographs, game-related materials, music, home video content or other information through PSN to share with the PSN community (“User Material”). We may provide you with content to use in the creation of User Material. User Material created by you will belong to you, although any content provided by us will still belong to us and/or our licensors as explained in Section 7 above.
You authorise us, our affiliated companies and other PSN users, to use, distribute, copy, modify, display, and publish your User Material throughout PSN and other associated services. You also authorise us and our affiliated companies, without payment to you, to license, sell and otherwise commercially exploit your User Material (for example, selling subscriptions to access User Material and/or receiving advertising revenue related to User Material), and to use your User Material in the promotion of PlayStation products and services. You must not commercially exploit User Material without our consent. You waive any moral rights you may have in your User Material. By posting, streaming or transmitting User Material you represent and warrant that you have all rights necessary to use, post, stream and transmit such User Material and to grant the rights set out in this paragraph.
You agree to cooperate with us and our affiliates and subsidiaries in resolving any dispute that may arise from your User Material through PSN. We reserve the right to refuse to upload and/or to remove any User Material at our discretion.